Monday, February 22, 2010

Interesting Posts and Articles #259

  1. At Life In Israel, eyebrow shaping advertisements are not tznius. So too, Styrofoam sheitel heads.
    a
  2. Lion of Zion on tuition relief, in the form of high school possibly only going up to tenth grade.
    a
  3. Dreaming of Moshiach reports on the death of Moshiach ben David.
    a
  4. At Mystical Paths, they continue their discussion and condemnation of yoga. Reb Gutman Locks used to be a guru, before becoming a baal Teshuva. There are two sorts of proof. One is mystical, showing the negative powers associated with yoga:


    In the summer of 1972, I sat on a park bench at the corner of 86th street and Central Park West in New York City. I did not speak. I just sat there. After a few days, I looked up and saw some 125 people whom I did not know sitting silently on the sidewalk in front of me. Alan Ginsberg, the well known poet, was lying there, spread out on his face, worshiping me. Ram Das (Richard Alpert), the famous 1960’s guru, was washing my feet, and Peter Max was painting my picture. There were a number of television crews trying to record me while I just sat there, not talking. The reporters and camera crews were climbing over the crowd, struggling to get close enough to ask me a question.

    This is what they asked: “What is this power that we feel coming from you?”

    I had been in India for a couple of years, meditating and learning the ways of the East. I picked up one of their “mystical” (unclean) powers.[ii]
    I don't put too much stock in such things. Ain Od Milvado, and there is no such thing as kishuf. This is just the reaction of foolish people following trends.

    The other sort of proof stems from an intimate knowledge of the intended meaning of many yoga practices, from being such a guru. For example:


    Now look at the picture (above) that is featured on the Web site COLLIVE. You see what appears to be a religious Jewish man who says that he is teaching “kosher yoga meditation.” Look at his thumbs. They are purposely touching his forefingers, just as the books of Eastern idolatry teach. I doubt that he knows why his yogi guru taught him to hold his fingers like that, but I do.
    and:


    There are many different types of yoga, and all of them are Hindu religious practices. For instance, besides the common hatha yoga (physical exercises and positions), there is bakti yoga which teaches devotional attachment and service to a deity. There is raja yoga which teaches the Hindu meditation techniques. There yogacara which teaches the Eastern “enlightenment,” and Jnana yoga which is the way of Hindu knowledge. One of the main goals of these yogas is “Moksha – freedom and trying to come to the realization of your identity with the Supreme Being.” This is called, “G-d realization.” Do you know who teaches this in the Torah? The Serpent in the Garden of Eden says the same thing! “…And you will be like G-d.”[iii] The “G-d realized” guru will say, “I am god.”

    Actually, there is an entire yoga dedicated to this serpent and its power. It teaches a certain meditation system where you try to raise energy up your spine. This energy is called the Kudalini, or “Serpent Power.”
    Now, if the negative forces are real, and impure spiritual forces, and it is not just nonsense, then I can understand why one should not engage in it. And if kishuf is real, performing actual kishuf is a bad thing.

    If it is not real, though, then we have the following halachic question. If something was originally idolatrous practice, but this is absolutely NOT the intent of those Jewish people who practice it -- but rather, to stretch, to quiet the mind, and so on and so forth; and not only is it not the intent, but they are entirely UNAWARE of the idolatrous origins, such that they could never have the intent, would it still be forbidden? Because intent may very well be critical when it comes to idolatry. For this, consult your posek. It is a good question, and should be resolved.

    But at the least, the people behind Mystical Paths are convinced that there is a reality to yoga, which makes it very problematic; and it seems that they maintain that even without it, these idolatrous origins make it unkosher. As a result of their stance on that, they have received some negative email correspondence, calling them zealots.


    We recently have been in touch with a few major publications in the Jewish world about our position on Yoga, as well as in direct communication with various people who have emailed us. Without violating anyone's privacy, here's the kind of responses we're getting...
    Check it out.

    Still related to the above, they post a video of the Lubavitcher Rebbe about Non-Jewish techniques.

    And see Shirat Devorah, who translates it for us.

  5. Various websites discussing the portable mechitzah for airplanes. (DovBear, Avakesh, Vos Iz Neaias). This is nothing new; I discussed this back in 2008. What is new is that some idiots are suggesting that people use it:

    Haredi airline passengers are being advised to hang a new type of mehitza – a halachic barrier to separate the sexes – around the top of their airplane seats, to shield their eyes from immodest neighbors and in-flight movies.
    The Rabbinical Council for Public Transportation, which is also representing the haredi community on the issue of gender-segregated “mehadrin” buses, is now placing advertisements in haredi newspapers encouraging the community to purchase the traveler mehitzas.
    Of course, given that besides the movie projection, each seat has its own individual display, what will really happen is that chareidim will be free to watch whatever movie they want with others being none the wiser.

    This is actually a good thing! Let them use similar partitions on buses, and then do away with the idea of the "mehadrin" bus!

    Meanwhile, the Muqata has exclusive photos of these partitions:



    :)


  6. Here on parshablog I translated the Aruch HaShulchan on getting drunk on Pruim.

17 comments:

thanbo said...

And those airline attendants thought wearing tefillin looked strange and threatening!

Who knows what he could be doing inside that giant lampshade?

Is this for real, or is it a giant purim joke?

joshwaxman said...

well, the article is unfortunately for real. the muqata's picture is a joke, and is yet another twist on ekl al's ads which came out after the tefillin incident. this is yet another photoshop of that advertisement.

kt,
josh

Akiva said...

I believe the Jerusalem Post online article that's the basis for the mechita is a Purim shtick. We'll see.

Regarding the Yoga stuff, I'm concerned that we're not communicating our point well. Let me try again here in brief...

1 - Idolatrous practices are forbidden, regardless of intent. Even doing things that are "like" or can be misinterpreted as involvement are forbidden (the classic example being picking up a coin that causes you to bend over where there's an idol in that direction). Therefore, Yoga practices that have religious intent according to _their_ understanding are forbidden. (Of course, consult your posek for a personal ruling.)

2 - Whether Yoga has spiritual power or not, meditation and focused intention has mental power. Visualization can change sports performance. Studies have even shown extensive meditation causes physical brain structural changes. Even at the early levels Yoga, Tai Chi, Chi Gong, and even many martial arts, involve various specific types of meditations, focused intent, and visualizations. Very often these involve spiritual thought patterns that are incompatible with Judaism. That's the purely physical-scientific level.

3 - These systems clearly include spiritual belief models that are pretty incompatible with Judaism. Even "kosherized" versions that present themselves by the original name introduce Jews to the names and concepts, opening the door to further investigation that results in contact with the non-kosher systems. Every yoga book interlaces the exercises with the relgio-philosophical system. So by creating that curiosity, you're opening the door to deeper involvement.

Lakewood Falling Down said...

wait, is the lady in the Muqata picture tznius or not?

Lakewood Falling Down said...

wait, is the lady in the Muqata picture tznius or not?

Yosef Greenberg said...

Don't forget, Josh, that most people still do believe in kishuf, which could make it more problematic.

joshwaxman said...

"Don't forget, Josh, that most people still do believe in kishuf, which could make it more problematic."

I don't forget. But Rambam writes about such people, in hilchot Avodah Zarah, perek 11:
"יז [טז] וּדְבָרִים הָאֵלּוּ--כֻּלָּן, דִּבְרֵי שֶׁקֶר וְכָזָב הֶן; וְהֶן שֶׁהִטְעוּ בָּהֶן עוֹבְדֵי עֲבוֹדָה זָרָה הַקַּדְמוֹנִים לְגוֹיֵי הָאֲרָצוֹת, כְּדֵי שֶׁיִּנָּהוּ אַחֲרֵיהֶן. וְאֵין רָאוּי לְיִשְׂרָאֵל, שְׁהֶן חֲכָמִים מְחֻכָּמִים, לְהִמָּשֵׁךְ בַּהֲבָלִים אֵלּוּ, וְלֹא לְהַעֲלוֹת עַל הַלֵּב שֶׁיֵּשׁ בָּהֶן תְּעָלָה: שֶׁנֶּאֱמָר "כִּי לֹא-נַחַשׁ בְּיַעֲקֹב, וְלֹא-קֶסֶם בְּיִשְׂרָאֵל" (במדבר כג,כג), וְנֶאֱמָר "כִּי הַגּוֹיִם הָאֵלֶּה, אֲשֶׁר אַתָּה יוֹרֵשׁ אוֹתָם--אֶל-מְעֹנְנִים וְאֶל-קֹסְמִים, יִשְׁמָעוּ; וְאַתָּה--לֹא כֵן, נָתַן לְךָ ה' אֱלֹהֶיךָ" (דברים יח,יד).

יח כָּל הַמַּאֲמִין בִּדְבָרִים אֵלּוּ, וְכַיּוֹצֶא בָּהֶן, וּמְחַשֵּׁב בְּלִבּוֹ שְׁהֶן אֱמֶת וְדִבְרֵי חָכְמָה, אֲבָל הַתּוֹרָה אָסְרָה אוֹתָן--אֵינוּ אֵלָא מִן הַסְּכָלִים וּמֵחַסְרֵי הַדַּעַת, וּבִכְלַל הַנָּשִׁים וְהַקְּטַנִּים שְׁאֵין דַּעְתָּן שְׁלֵמָה. אֲבָל בַּעֲלֵי הַחָכְמָה וּתְמִימֵי הַדַּעַת, יֵדְעוּ בִּרְאָיוֹת בְּרוּרוֹת--שֶׁכָּל אֵלּוּ הַדְּבָרִים שֶׁאָסְרָה תּוֹרָה, אֵינָן דִּבְרֵי חָכְמָה, אֵלָא תֹּהוּ וְהֶבֶל שֶׁנִּמְשְׁכוּ בָּהֶן חַסְרֵי הַדַּעַת, וְנָטְשׁוּ כָּל דַּרְכֵי הָאֱמֶת בִּגְלָלָן. וּמִפְּנֵי זֶה אָמְרָה תּוֹרָה, כְּשֶׁהִזְהִירָה עַל כָּל אֵלּוּ הַהֲבָלִים, "תָּמִים תִּהְיֶה, עִם ה' אֱלֹהֶיךָ" (דברים יח,יג). "

As such, a belief in kishuf as real should not guide a non-foolish posek, according to the Rambam.

And even though many people have adopted this position, that kishuf of old was real, they do not necessarily maintain that it exists to this day.

You are right that a posek that does foolishly believe in this could surely come to another conclusion. Without definite knowledge, I still would guess that this would include some of the (more mystically inclined) chareidi Gedolim in Eretz Yisrael and America, at the least. Though their pesak would then be based on a fundamental misunderstanding of reality, and I wouldn't give it a second thought.

Reb Akiva raises other good points, which I hope to respond to soon.

"wait, is the lady in the Muqata picture tznius or not?"
seems to be, but different groups define tznius standards differently.

kol tuv,
josh

joshwaxman said...

R' Akiva:
1 - Idolatrous practices are forbidden, regardless of intent. Even doing things that are "like" or can be misinterpreted as involvement are forbidden (the classic example being picking up a coin that causes you to bend over where there's an idol in that direction).

true, and despite that, this need not mean yoga practices are necessarily forbidden.

the basis of this would seem to be the following gemara:
"Our Rabbis taught: It is forbidden to enter a city while idolatrous worship is taking place therein or [to go] from there to another city; this is the opinion of R. Meir. But the Sages say, only when the road leads solely to that city is it forbidden; if however the road does not lead exclusively to that place it is permitted. If a splinter has got into his [foot] while in front of an idol, he should not bend down to get it out, because he may appear as bowing to the idol; but if not apparent it is permitted. If his coins got scattered in front of an idol he should not bend and pick them up, for he may be taken as bowing to the idol; but if not apparent it is permitted. If there is a spring flowing in front of an idol he should not bend down and drink, because he may appear to be bowing to the idol; but if not apparent it is permitted. One should not place one's mouth on the mouth of human figures, which act as water fountains in the cities, for the purpose of drinking; because he may seem as kissing the idolatrous figure."

So bending to pick up coins is forbidden, but only where it seems to the onlooker that one is worshiping. That is, it is an issue of marit ayin, rather than a din of idolatry. So to say "Idolatrous practices are forbidden, regardless of intent" may be true. But they are forbidden altz maris ayin, not altz avodah zarah.

what about "kosher" yoga, in which the participants are entirely unaware of any idolatrous associations? and the hamon am thinks it weird, but does not in fact associate it with idolatry. there, there is no maris ayin, and there is no idolatry, so it would seem to be permitted, at least on that count. of course, one should not pasken based on the internet. consult your posek about such critical matters as these.

my focus was really just on this one point. i'll try to reply to the other two a bit later, bli neder. i don't totally disagree, though i do disagree partially.

kt,
josh

Akiva said...

Josh,

This is the classic Gemora brought up, and it concerns a Jew performing acts which clearly are not avodah zarah but may, due to maris ayin, appear to others viewing him as if he performed an act of avodah zarah.

Avodah Zarah 12 discusses whether one must give up his life to avoid maris ayin of avodah zarah! The Rema in Yoreh Daya 150:3 clarifies (from the Ran) that if one might die he must avoid maris ayin, but if he will certainly die he may perform the necessary act that incurs maris ayin.

You raise an interesting point though...if no one knows that a particular idolatrous practice is idolatrous or has idolatrous associations, then performing it isn't maris ayin?

So, for example, if my children were to play with an Xmas creche toy, complete with baby yoshka, this would be permitted in Bnei Brak (where the residents have no knowledge of such images) but absolutely prohibited in New York? (Assuming my children are unaware of the associations of the imagery as well.)

Devorah said...

Going by Josh's theory...You could therefore say that a Jew can go into a church, as long as his INTENT is not to worship there.
Whereas in reality, Jews are not allowed to go into a church, or any place of worship where there are idols.

Obviously a Jew would not "intend" to worship there, but just by the fact of entering the place, we have given it our seal of approval, so to speak.

By attending a yoga class, you are "entering" a forbidden place, and giving it credence.

joshwaxman said...

"So, for example, if my children were to play with an Xmas creche toy, complete with baby yoshka, this would be permitted in Bnei Brak (where the residents have no knowledge of such images) but absolutely prohibited in New York? (Assuming my children are unaware of the associations of the imagery as well.)"

this seems quite possible, especially if your kids don't know what it is. except that this the creche might be avodah zarah or tashmishei avodah zarah, and until it is nullified, would be assur behanaah. but in terms of maris ayin, sure!

indeed, there is that famous picture of a chareidi man and his kids going thru Meah Shearim on Purim dressed as Santa and his elves. no one there got it.

and also, what I've heard (when I was in Israel), how a popular Succah decoration was baby Yitzchak, his donkey, and the three wise rabbis. someone had extras, and resold them in Israel. the people there did not know of the idolatrous associations, baruch Hashem, and so they merrily made use of them. and i think it is funny that this happened, and that there is no violation here.

"Going by Josh's theory...You could therefore say that a Jew can go into a church, as long as his INTENT is not to worship there."
this is possibly comparing apples to oranges. this is a very complicated issue. there may be deorayta issues with entering a church. although there are certain circumstances, such as hatzalas nefashos, where it is permitted.

but according to what i wrote, it would not be permitted. since everybody recognizes that a church is a makom avodah zarah, there is certainly maris ayin involved. other people may well think that his intent was to worship there. whereas by yoga, neither he nor the general Jewish community associates yoga with avodah zarah. they may be wrong about that, but this ignorance may well work in favor of permitting it.

again, i am not saying it is certainly permitted. consult your posek about this.

kol tuv,
josh

Devorah said...

(entering a church) although there are certain circumstances, such as hatzalas nefashos, where it is permitted....

What does "hatzalas nefashos" mean?

joshwaxman said...

"2 - Whether Yoga has spiritual power or not, meditation and focused intention has mental power. Visualization can change sports performance. Studies have even shown extensive meditation causes physical brain structural changes. "

i am certainly willing to grant that. otherwise, it is just a time waster. i think an open question, though, is whether the mental changes are exactly as described and hoped for by the principles of yoga. i don't know whether these changes are compatible with Judaism or not. but then, i am no expert in either yoga or in the physical repercussions of them. but these physical / mental changes might be just that. and they might be a tool that is harnessed either towards good or bad.

but i see what you are saying here.

kt,
josh

Devorah said...

The fact that a person doesn't "know" about something, doesn't give him protection from any adverse effects.
An example being that a person eats an apple in which there is a worm. He doesn't know about the worm inside, but nevertheless he's eaten it.
The worm was poisonous, and the man became sick.

Ignorance is not necessarily bliss.

joshwaxman said...

"What does "hatzalas nefashos" mean?"

saving of lives. as an example of the complexity of this issue, see the discussion over whether Rabbi Lookstein was right to attend the inaugural prayer service for Obama, posted at Hirhurim.

kol tuv,
josh

joshwaxman said...

"The worm was poisonous, and the man became sick."

indeed. i think that in large part, this reduces to which position one takes in the dispute between Rambam and the Vilna Gaon as to whether there is any reality or power to idolatry and magic, as discussed here.

kt,
josh

Akiva said...

Different meditation techniques to produce different mental results. At the physical level, actual different brain wave patterns. At the mental level, the goal of the Eastern techniques is (usually) emptying the mind and achieving "bliss".

Jewish techniques go towards kavanah, focus and connection.

BTW, it is directly known that physical body actions can be used to change brain wave patterns. There's a particular "desk relaxation" technique that's taught, a toe-to-head muscle clenching and release method, that can quickly push one into a near-sleep brain wave pattern for a few quick minutes of rejuvenating desk-rest. (Learned that in a management training class.)

So it is not a surprise that yoga positions and exercises can generate changes in mental state, and combined with focused direction and/or meditation, lead even relatively early to certain mental states.

Now if the goal is rest and recovery, good and well. But if one accidentally finds themselves experiencing "bliss", then one has reached a mental state that is dangerous (and, btw, addictive, or perhaps dangerous because it's addictive and brings spiritual feelings with it).

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