Showing posts with label yoma. Show all posts
Showing posts with label yoma. Show all posts

Thursday, June 24, 2021

Koy and Chatzi Shiur - Yoma 74

 On Yoma 74:

איתיביה רבי יוחנן לריש לקיש אין לי אלא כל שישנו בעונש ישנו באזהרה כוי וחצי שיעור הואיל ואינו בעונש יכול אינו באזהרה תלמוד לומר כל חלב מדרבנן וקרא אסמכתא בעלמא

Rabbi Yoḥanan raised an objection to the opinion of Reish Lakish from what was taught in a baraita with regard to the prohibition of forbidden fat: I have derived only that anything that is included in the punishment of karet is included in the prohibition. However, one might have thought that there is no prohibition to eat fat of a koy, or a half-measure of forbidden fat, since there is no punishment for those. Therefore, the verse states: “ All fat” (Leviticus 7:23), indicating that there is a prohibition to eat any kind of fat, including fat of uncertain status and a half-measure of fat. Therefore, a half-measure of fat is prohibited by Torah law. Reish Lakish rejects this argument: This prohibition is rabbinic, and the verse brought as a proof is a mere support. It cannot be claimed that there is such a prohibition by Torah law.

Why would the brayta put together koy and chatzi shiur. Is the focus of Rabbi Yochanan's question just the latter part, the chatzi shiur, but these are just linked together in the derasha?

We could possibly answer based on Rav Chisda's understanding of a kvi / koy. On Chullin 79b, he defines it as a hybrid of a he-goat and a doe. Thus, it has aspects of both. And only the chelev of beheimot, not chayot, are prohibited. This is not a matter of safek, but rather of an instrinsic chatzi shiur.

Tuesday, January 21, 2014

Daf Yomi for Yoma 74: How do we get fasting from תְּעַנּוּ אֶת-נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם

From A Concise Dictionary of Akkadian, we see the word napishtu, which is a cognate of the Hebrew word נפש. It means "throat."


Consider in Tehillim 124 whether soul or neck might be the better translation.

ד  אֲזַי, הַמַּיִם שְׁטָפוּנוּ--    נַחְלָה, עָבַר עַל-נַפְשֵׁנוּ.4 Then the waters had overwhelmed us, the stream had gone over our soul;
ה  אֲזַי, עָבַר עַל-נַפְשֵׁנוּ--    הַמַּיִם, הַזֵּידוֹנִים.5 Then the proud waters had gone over our soul.'

With that in mind, when the pasuk says in Vayikra 16 (in Akkadian):

כט  וְהָיְתָה לָכֶם, לְחֻקַּת עוֹלָם:  בַּחֹדֶשׁ הַשְּׁבִיעִי בֶּעָשׂוֹר לַחֹדֶשׁ תְּעַנּוּ אֶת-נַפְשֹׁתֵיכֶם, וְכָל-מְלָאכָה לֹא תַעֲשׂוּ--הָאֶזְרָח, וְהַגֵּר הַגָּר בְּתוֹכְכֶם.29 And it shall be a statute for ever unto you: in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and shall do no manner of work, the home-born, or the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Consider how one afflicts his throat, if not by fasting.

This could then be a neat answer to the brayta's question on Yoma 74b:
ת"ר (ויקרא טז, כט) תענו את נפשותיכם יכול ישב בחמה או בצנה כדי שיצטער תלמוד לומר (ויקרא טז, כט) וכל מלאכה לא תעשו מה מלאכה שב ואל תעשה אף ענוי נפש שב ואל תעשה
Our Rabbis taught: Ye shall afflict your souls.2 One might assume that one must sit in heat or cold in order to afflict oneself, therefore the text reads: And ye shall do no manner of work;2 just as the [prohibition of] labour [means]: sit and do nothing, so does [the enjoinment of] affliction [signify]: sit and do nothing.3
Or perhaps this alternate derivation is just me being silly. Putting aside any of the derashot in the gemara, or any peshat attempts to deduce this, perhaps this all comes down to masorah (tradition). Or if not "tradition", an innate understanding of the nuances and idioms of the Hebrew language, such as is available to ancient native Hebrew speakers, such that they would understand what was intended (and were expected to understand this phrase, which would otherwise be too ambiguous). And we can see it used in that way elsewhere in Biblical Hebrew, and cite pesukim to that effect.

Aharon ben Yosef the Karaite agrees that it means fasting as well, with nefesh as part of this idea of fasting, as well as bringing in the concept of hachnaah. Thus:

Sunday, November 17, 2013

Yoma 3a: How does Rashi define regel leAtzmo

Something I noticed on Yoma 3a:

Rashi (underlined, right) defines regel leAtzmo that Shemini Atzeres does not have the name of Succot upon it.

Our Tosafot (underlined, left) cites Rashi to define regel leAtzmo as that one does not sit in the Succah.

Tosafot Yeshanim (underlined, lower left) cites Rashi as that one says "Chag Shemini Atzeres Hazeh" in davening. Which seems to be an interpretation of our Rashi, that it does not have Shem Succot upon it.

What should we make of our Tosafot though? Is this a girsa issue, that our Tosafot had a different version of Rashi? And, is that more of a stretch than saying that our Tosafot is somehow an interpretation of our Rashi, say, that since it does not have שם סוכות upon it, one does not sit in a Succah? I would lean towards it being a different tradition in Rashi.

Sunday, November 27, 2011

Did Avraham specifically keep eruv tavshilin or erev techumin?

Summary: An analysis by the Gra.

Post: I saw the following nice piece in Kol Eliyahu, from the Vilna Gaon:
"In the verse עקב אשר שמע אברהם בקולי וישמור משמרתי, etc: Behold, from this pasuk, Chazal darshened in Masechet Yoma (daf 28) that Avraham Avinu kept eiruvei tavshilin, see there. And at first glance, this is extremely surprising, where eiruvei tavshilin is hinted to in this verse. And there is to say that the correct girsa was that Avraham Avinu kept even eruvei techumin.* And this derash is hinted to well in the word עקב, for via the eiruvei techumin, a man treads with his feet outside of 2000 cubits on Shabbat {Josh: and the heel is called עקב.} However, the second printed wrote the words ערובי תחומין in roshei teivos, as ע"ת. And the third printer thought, and erred, that the roshei teivos referred to ערובי תבשילין, and wrote out this error more clearly."
In the footnote designated by the *, someone refers to the teshuva of the Rashba I present in this other post, in which he says eiruvei techumin rather than eiruvei tavshilin.

This is quote plausible. Though the derasha was not explicitly on the עקב part. The gemara in Yoma ends:
א"ל א"כ מצותי ותורותי למה לי אמר (רב) ואיתימא רב אשי קיים אברהם אבינו אפילו עירובי תבשילין שנאמר תורותי אחת תורה שבכתב ואחת תורה. שבעל פה:

which is a derasha from the end of the pasuk. Still, it can be a contributing factor. I would rather find evidence to either from a described action of Avraham, based on a pasuk. Barring that, I would like to consider the type of enactment each of these are. Eiruvei techumin operate on a Biblical level as establishing a place of shevisa, though this fact might be the result of a derasha. (Though the smaller limit is Rabbinic, IIRC.) Eiruv tavshilin is entirely to combat a rabbinic concern of confusion of what sorts of activities are permitted. Are Rabbinic enactments combating Rabbinic concerns under the title of Torah SheBaal Peh?

Thursday, March 17, 2011

Shadal's theory about the Urim veTumim

Summary: As a sort of alphabet oracle, similar to Chazal but slightly different.

Post: In parshat Tzav, we hear of the Urim veTumim, placed into the choshen:

8. And he placed the choshen upon him, and he inserted into the choshen the Urim and the Tummim.ח. וַיָּשֶׂם עָלָיו אֶת הַחֹשֶׁן וַיִּתֵּן אֶל הַחֹשֶׁן אֶת הָאוּרִים וְאֶת הַתֻּמִּים:
According to Rashi:

את האורים: כתב של שם המפורש:

It would seem that this written-down Ineffable Divine Name somehow empowered the communication via the letters on the stones with the names of the shevatim on the choshen.

Thus, from Yoma 73b:
 למה נקרא שמן אורים ותומים אורים שמאירין את דבריהן תומים שמשלימין את דבריהן 
And further:
כיצד נעשית רבי יוחנן אומר בולטות ריש לקיש אומר מצטרפות והא לא כתיב בהו צד"י אמר רב שמואל בר יצחק אברהם יצחק ויעקב כתיב שם והא לא כתיב טי"ת אמר רב אחא בר יעקב שבטי ישורון כתיב שם מיתיבי כל כהן שאינו מדבר ברוח הקודש ושכינה שורה עליו אין שואלין בו שהרי שאל צדוק ועלתה לו אביתר ולא עלתה לו שנאמר (שמואל ב טו, כד) ויעל אביתר עד תום כל העם וגו' סיועי הוה מסייע בהדייהו:
Or, the latter in English:
(f) Question: How would the answer appear?
(g) Answer: R. Yochanan says the letters would stand out (in their place) and Resh Lakish says they would organize into the words.
(h) Question: But the names of the Shevatim are missing the letter Tzadi?
(i) Answer: The names Avraham Yitzhok and Yakov also featured on the Choshen.
(j) Question: But we are still missing a Tes?
(k) Answer: The words Shivtei Yeshurun appeared there, as well.
(l) Question: We see that the operation of the Urim VeTumim was based on the level of Shechinah in the Kohen Gadol and so (according to Rashi) there is no need for the letters to stand out or to organize at all!?
(m) Answer: The Kohen would assist the Urim VeTumim to function.
I've also seen the idea of the letters lighting up, rather than protruding. (Thus, Urim.) See also this.

Shadal has a similar, though different theory:
ח ויתן אל החשן את האורים ואת התומים: משה נתנם בחושן בשעת לבישה; אם כן, לא היו קבועים בחושן; אם כן, היה הכהן משתמש בהם לפרקים, ומוציאם מתוך החושן; ואולי היו כ"ב אותיות חקוקות על כ"ב חתיכות קטנות של עץ או של מתכת, והיה הכהן מרים משם אות אחת ואחר כך אות אחרת, והשגחת ה' היתה מזמנת לו תשובה נכונה לשאלתו; והיו האותיות ההן נקראות כל אחת בשם מיוחד, האל"ף היתה נקרת "אוּר", והת"ו היתה נקראת "תֹם", וכללן, מאל"ף ועד ת"ו, נקראו "אורים ותומים", ומזה נמשכת קבלת חז"ל (יומא עג:) שמאותיות שמות השבטים היו מבינים התשובה. 
"and he inserted into the choshen the Urim and the Tummim" -- Moshe inserted them into the choshen at the time of wearing it; it so, they were not affixed in the choshen; if so, the kohen made use of them at odd intervals, and {at that point} removed them from within the choshen. And perhaps they were 22 letters engraved on 22 small strips of wood or metal, and the kohen lefter from there one letter, and after that another letter, etc., and Hashem's Providence arranged for him a correct answer to his question. And these letters were each called by a specific name, the aleph was called `ur {which begins with an aleph}, and the tav was called tam {which begins with a tav, and perhaps signifies completion}, and the group of them, from aleph until tav, were called urim veTumim, and from this derived the tradition of Chazal {in Yoma 73b} that from the letters of the names of the shevatim they understood the answer."

This is a common rationalist-Jewish approach to explain miracles. Rather than have every miracle usurp the natural order, make it operate within the existing order, but with the guidance of Divine Providence. Shadal also has going for him that the roshei teivot are aleph and tav. And in fact, alphabet oracles are known to exist in the ancient world. This could have been influenced by the Jewish practice -- they took it from us! -- or it could be co-opting an existing oracular practice, with the change that this one actually worked.

I wonder if the modern invention of computers and different output displays would have influenced Shadal to treat the standard, traditional explanation as more plausible, rather than a corrupted understanding of the way the alphabet oracle worked. Probably not, since part of the idea is one of non-overt Divine guidance.

Friday, June 18, 2010

Why does Rashi deviate from halacha in explaining וְשָׁחַט אֹתָהּ לְפָנָיו?

Summary: Why does Rashi deviate from halacha in explaining וְשָׁחַט אֹתָהּ לְפָנָיו? He explains it as that a zar, that is a non-kohen, slaughtering it before Eleazar, but this is like Shmuel, while we pasken like Rav! I suggest a few reasons for this deviation.

Post: While flipping through Heemek Davar, I saw an interesting comment. At the beginning of parshas Chukas,

3. And you shall give it to Eleazar the kohen, and he shall take it outside the camp and slaughter it in his presence.ג. וּנְתַתֶּם אֹתָהּ אֶל אֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן וְהוֹצִיא אֹתָהּ אֶל מִחוּץ לַמַּחֲנֶה וְשָׁחַט אֹתָהּ לְפָנָיו:
and slaughter it in his presence: A non- kohen slaughters it while Eleazar watches. — [Yoma 42a]ושחט אותה לפניו: זר שוחט ואלעזר רואה:

As the Netziv notes in Heemek Davar, while this is indeed a position which appears in maseches Yuma, and is the position of Shmuel, we pasken like Rav who would explain the pasuk otherwise. To cite the gemara in Yoma:
אמר ר' יצחק שתי שחיטות שמעתי אחת של פרה ואחת של פרו אחת כשרה בזר ואחת פסולה בזר ולא ידענא הי מינייהו 
איתמר שחיטת פרה ופרו רב ושמואל חד אמר פרה פסולה פרו כשרה וחד אמר פרו פסולה פרה כשרה 
תסתיים דרב הוא דאמר פרה פסולה דאמר ר' זירא שחיטת פרה בזר פסולה ואמר רב עלה אלעזר וחוקה שנינו בה 
ורב מאי שנא פרה דכתיב אלעזר וחוקה פרו נמי הא כתיב אהרן וחוקה שחיטה לאו עבודה היא אי הכי פרה נמי שאני פרה דקדשי בדק הבית היא ולאו כל דכן הוא 
אמר רב שישא בריה דרב אידי מידי דהוה אמראות נגעים דלאו עבודה היא ובעיא כהונה ולשמואל דאמר פרו פסולה מאי שנא פרו דכתיב אהרן וחוקה פרה נמי הא כתיב אלעזר וחוקה שאני התם דכתיב  (במדבר יט, ג) ושחט אותה לפניו שיהא זר שוחט ואלעזר רואה ורב שלא יסיח דעתו ממנה
Read a translation in the Point by Point Summary. Thus, there is a dispute whether פרו or פרה (his cow, or the parah aduma) is kasher with slaughter by a non-kohen. And there is a dispute between Rav and Shmuel as to which is kasher and which is pasul. We don't know who said what, but the stama d'gemara derives that Rav is the one who passuls by Parah Aduma based on a statement he made upon a statement by Rabbi Zera permitting it via a zar. That statement, that it states chukkah and Eleazar, is semi-cryptic. He doesn't explicitly say whether he is supporting or arguing with Rabbi Zera. The reasoning is that the section begins that it is chukkat haTorah, which would imply that what happens in the midbar is a pattern for future generations. And it specifies Eleazar, so we should require a kohen.

But if we consider the psukim in question:

ב  זֹאת חֻקַּת הַתּוֹרָה, אֲשֶׁר-צִוָּה יְהוָה לֵאמֹר:  דַּבֵּר אֶל-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְיִקְחוּ אֵלֶיךָ פָרָה אֲדֻמָּה תְּמִימָה אֲשֶׁר אֵין-בָּהּ מוּם, אֲשֶׁר לֹא-עָלָה עָלֶיהָ, עֹל.2 This is the statute of the law which the LORD hath commanded, saying: Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring thee a red heifer, faultless, wherein is no blemish, and upon which never came yoke.
ג  וּנְתַתֶּם אֹתָהּ, אֶל-אֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן; וְהוֹצִיא אֹתָהּ אֶל-מִחוּץ לַמַּחֲנֶה, וְשָׁחַט אֹתָהּ לְפָנָיו.3 And ye shall give her unto Eleazar the priest, and she shall be brought forth without the camp, and she shall be slain before his face.
ד  וְלָקַח אֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן, מִדָּמָהּ--בְּאֶצְבָּעוֹ; וְהִזָּה אֶל-נֹכַח פְּנֵי אֹהֶל-מוֹעֵד, מִדָּמָהּ--שֶׁבַע פְּעָמִים.4 And Eleazar the priest shall take of her blood with his finger, and sprinkle of her blood toward the front of the tent of meeting seven times.

we see that the hazaya, that is, the zerika, is done by Eleazar. But the simple reading of the pasuk is that someone else is doing the slaughter, before Eleazar. How would he give this as counter-evidence to Rabbi Zera?! The setama reinterprets the pasuk in a far-fetched way. But still, this is a far-fetched implicit reading within the words of Rav, which is difficult.

Perhaps we could instead understand this as a statement of support. Namely, this is a chok, so an establishment ledorot, and only those things where Eleazar is written need it be performed by a kohen. Therefore, the zerika needs to be done by a kohen, but not the shechita. This is not as far-fetched as it may seem at first glance. Indeed, this may well be what comes directly out of the Yerushalmi on this topic.

First, though, I would point out that the straightforward interpretation, aligned in Yoma with just Shmuel, is put forth as well by the Sifrei on parashat Chukat. Thus:

ושחט אותה לפניו שיהיה אחר שוחט
ואלעזר רואה


This is perhaps different, as it calls this person who slaughters אחר rather than זר. But the meaning is that someone other than Eleazar slaughters while Eleazar watches, and the implication would be that it can then be anyone, including a non-kohen. Especially as it is used in the relevant derasha in Yoma.

I would be tempted to say that Sifrei is sometimes called Sifrei deVei Rav, the Sifrei of the academy of Rav, in which case we should see this as proof that Rav indeed holds by the interpretation attributed in the gemara only to Shmuel. But scholars point out that this is not an identical work, and so we cannot make any deductions about the position of Rav and his students from the Sifrei.

There is also the Yerushalmi, in Yoma 18a:
א"ר יוחנן לא מצאנו שחיטה כשירה בזר רב מפקד לתלמידוי בכל אתר הוון תניי שוחט חוץ מפרה הוון תני זורק וא"ר יוחנן לא מצאנו שחיטה פסולה בזר התיב ר' חייה בר בא והא כתיב (במדבר יח) ושחט והזה מה הזייה לא הוכשרה באשה כאיש אף שחיטה לא הוכשרה באשה כאיש א"ל הרי הזייה מיימיה הרי היא כשירה בזר ופסולה באשה א"ל תמן לית כתב כהן וליידא מילתא כתב איש להכשיר את הזר היא איש היא אשה ברם הכא כתיב כהן היא זר היא אשה אין תימר שהיא כשירה בזר תיכשר באשה 

It continues with a discussion of whether the Par of Yom Hakippurim requires a kohen to slaughter it. Now, this Yerushalmi most likely is at least a bit corrupted. This because first Rabbi Yochanan is reported as saying:
א"ר יוחנן לא מצאנו שחיטה כשירה בזר
and subsequently
וא"ר יוחנן לא מצאנו שחיטה פסולה בזר

Presumably, he would only be making one such statement. Given that the latter is followed with התיב ר' חייה בר בא in a way that he tries to prove that shechita (for a specific korban -- it would seem as well the Parah Adumah) is NOT permitted for a zar (because it is not permitted by a woman, at least in terms of the sprinkling on clean items), and התיב represents a question, it would seem that פסולה is correct and כשירה is not. This, of course, assuming that this statement by Rabbi Yochanan is being placed in the proper place. This is not altogether clear, because it seems like one of the two statements by Rabbi Yochanan are extraneous. Regardless, both Pnei Moshe and Korban HaEida agree in claiming that it should be פסולה rather than כשירה.

So Rabbi Yochanan is in effect making a general rule, that in ALL cases, shechita is permitted via a zar. There is also a statement by Rav that:
 רב מפקד לתלמידוי בכל אתר הוון תניי שוחט חוץ מפרה הוון תני זורק
Rav instructed his students that in all instances you should teach shochet, except by Parah Adumah where you should teach zorek.

This is a bit difficult, and perhaps requires emendation. But this should be, IMHO, a last resort. But an exclusion for shechita for a zar by Parah Adumah, as opposed to hazayah, is precisely in line which what I discussed above. After all, the pasuk in Chukas is clear that it is Eleazar who does the hazayah/zerika, but appears to indicate that a zar indeed does the shechita. So it works out perfectly. On the other hand, what are these other instances where one should teach shochet?! Perhaps those instances are by the Par shel Yom HaKippurim. (Indeed, that appears to be how Pnei Moshe explains it. I should also note that zerika appears in two different contexts, once in terms of the sprinkling towards the front of the Ohel Moed, and several times in terms of sprinkling things with the water of the ashes of the Parah Adumah to make them pure. It is unclear which one Rav would be speaking of. I can see arguments for both.)

Let us see how Korban HaEidah explains this. He writes, explaining the first part of the gemara, what is pictured to the right.

Thus, he crosses out the first statement by Rabbi Yochanan, which says כשירה. But further, he makes an elaborate emendation of the next statement. We have:
רב מפקד לתלמידוי בכל אתר הוון תניי שוחט חוץ מפרה הוון תני זורק
and Korban HaEidah boldly reverses shochet and zorek. Thus, the statement now reads:
רב מפקד לתלמידוי בכל אתר הוון תניי זורק חוץ מפרה הוון תני 
שוחט
With this emendation, it would mean: In all places, teach that one who sprinkles {on the mizbeach} is invalid if done by a zar, but that slaughtering is kasher via a zar, but by a Parah Adumah, teach that even shechita is invalid by a zar.

Rabbi Yochanan would then be arguing with this statement by Rav, and stating that we never find that slaughter is invalid by a zar, even by kodshei panim, and all the more so the Parah Adumah which is kodshei chutz.

This works out rather nicely in terms of the flow of the gemara. However, this requires an elaborate rewriting of the gemara, switching around two terms to make them mean what we want.

This reading has a definite plus, in that now Rav's opinion is consistent with his opinion in Talmud Bavli. In Bavli he specified that a zar performing shechita on a para aduma would passul it, and that is what he says here. However, this is why I do NOT prefer this reading. As a result of an emendation, we bring the Yerushalmi in line with the Bavli. Talk about Bavli bias! No. If there is a contradiction, let the contradiction stand. Don't emend the text!

Indeed, if Yerushalmi says the opposite of Bavli, we should take stock. The Yerushalmi was explicit as to the position of Rav. The Bavli was uncertain. It knew that Rav and Shmuel argued about it, but they did not know who said what. The stama d'gemara interpreted a statement made by Rav upon a statement by Rabbi Zera to show that it was Rav who invalidated by a zar by Parah Adumah, but I proposed a way that the statement could be understood another way -- indeed, that he was talking about zerikah, which we see here in Yerushalmi that Rav maintains that a zar is invalid only in terms of the zerikah, and not the shechita.

I didn't actually speak out how the Yerushalmi would be understood without this emendation of Korban HaEdah. Let us see Pnei Moshe:

He does not remove the first statement by Rabbi Yochanan. It is rather like a gufa, where the gemara repeats the statement a second time to discuss it. And so Rabbi Yochanan's statement should indeed appear twice. He does, however, emend both statements to match, and presumably on the basis of the statement by Rabbi Chiya bar Abba, he chooses פסולה as the correct of the two. This strikes me as an eminently justified emendation, which is very conservative and does the least damage to the existing text.

In terms of Rav's instruction to his students, Pnei Moshe leaves it untouched. He explains it as that in all places, teach that the kohen slaughters, but by parah, teach that the kohen sprinkles, but the slaughtering is permitted by a zar. There is a difficulty in terms of what "in all places" means, since usually a zar may indeed slaughter, but he explains this as non-precise. Rav does not disagree with the Mishna in the beginning of Zevachim. Rather, he is speaking of the slaughter of the Par of Aharon (=Paro).

(Indeed, I wonder if this irregularity of בכל אתר, "in every place", led to the corruption of Rabbi Yochanan's statement. For with כשירה Rabbi Yochanan would then be saying that in no place was slaughter kasher with a zar.)

If indeed Rav invalidates a zar by Paro, then back in Bavli, we know that it is Rav who invalidates by Paro, and Shmuel who invalidates by Parah, contrary to the conclusion of the setama d'gemara.

Let us turn back to Chukas, and Rashi, and the Netziv. The Netziv claimed that we pasken like Rav over Shmuel in Yoma, but Rashi is explaining the pasuk in accordance with Shmuel. I questioned whether this is really Rav's position, and I further wonder whether either Amorah would really explain the pasuk as Eliezer not having hesech haddat as the gemara proposes. One can say it is not Eleazer but still not a zar, based on the link between slaughter and sprinkling by an ish tahor, which is not an ishah who is usually valid, and thereby we would also exclude a zar. This appears to be the approach of the named Amora, Rabbi Chiya bar Ba (=Abba) in Yerushalmi. And if so, both Rav and Shmuel could agree to the diyuk in the Sifrei.

Now, Netziv claimed that we pasken like Rav in Bavli, but I am not so sure that Rashi need agree. After all, here is Rambam, in Mishneh Torah, hilchot Pesulei haMukdashin, perek 1, halacha 2:

ב  וכן פר כוהן גדול של יום הכיפורים--אף על פי שנאמר בו "ושחט אהרון" (ראה ויקרא טז,יא)--אם שחטו זר, כשר; אף פרה אדומה ששחטה זר--כשרה, שאין לך שחיטה שפסולה בזר.

He paskens like neither Rav nor Shmuel, for both Paro and Parah are kasher bezar, as is the general rule. This is in accordance with Rabbi Yochanan's rule, that we never find a shechita which is pasul via a zar. Perhaps Rashi holds the same, and so his interpretation is directly in line with halacha.

There are two other possibilities for why Rashi would give Shmuel's reading over that of (purportedly) Rav in Yoma, even if it is keneged halacha. The first is that Rashi is NOT getting it from Yoma, despite Judaica Press giving it as the only source for Rashi's statement, above. Rather, Rashi is getting it from Sifrei. Indeed, if you investigate many of the midrashic statements Rashi brings down in context, a whole slew of them are drawn from the Sifrei. Rashi is thus presenting a consistent presentation of the Sifrei on Chukas.

The second possibility is that Rashi does not care if we actually pasken like this. Rather, of two midrashic interpretations, he will select the maamar Chazal he feels is closer to peshat, even if it is not lehalacha. Though I cannot provide other examples of this at the moment, I do recall that indeed Rashi does do this at times, even for midrash halacha.

Monday, September 07, 2009

Was the Bar Yochni an Ostrich?

When Rabbi Slifkin visited Kew Gardens Hills last, I purchased a copy of his Sacred Monsters. This post is not a review -- those take too long -- but it is a very good read, and I would encourage others to check it out.

Of course, being the radical that I am, and having a somewhat different methodology, I would approach some of the sources he brings in a slightly different manner. Here is one such example. He discusses the possible identification of the Bar Yochni as the ostrich, since the pesukim in Iyov appear to be speaking of an ostrich, and a Rashi in Menachot, and a gemara in Bechorot, equates the two. There are reasons he brings to doubt it, such as a gemara that talks of it bringing its eggs up, which the ostrich does not do; but also a gemara which discusses the face of the Bar Yochni as something much larger than a tefach -- while the face of an ostrich is about a tefach -- maybe a bit larger, but not much.

From my perspective, not all Talmudic sources should be weighted equally. I'll consider three sources in this post.

The first, a gemara in Bechorot:
בכורות דף נז, ב גמרא
פעם אחת נפלה ביצת בר יוכני וטבעה ששים כרכים ושברה שלש מאות ארזים
ומי שדיא ליה והא כתיב (איוב לט) כנף רננים נעלסה
אמר רב אשי ההוא מוזרתא הואי:
This quite clearly comes from the Tannaim and Amoraim. The first statement I believe is stated by Rabbi Yishmael ben Satriel, a Tanna, while the clarification comes from Rav Ashi, an Amora. The question which prompts the statement might have been filled in by the setama de-gemara, and perhaps not -- but regardless, we have named Tannaim and Amoraim for a good portion of it.

In contrast, consider the gemara in Yoma 80a:
דף פ, א גמרא
טומאת אוכלין כביצה מנלן
א"ר אבהו א"ר אלעזר דאמר קרא (ויקרא יא) מכל האוכל אשר יאכל
אוכל הבא מחמת אוכל ואיזה זה ביצת תרנגולת
ואימא גדי מחוסר שחיטה
ואימא בן פקועה טעון קריעה
ואימא ביצת בר יוכני
תפסת מרובה לא תפסת תפסת מועט תפסת
ואימא ביעתא דציפורתא דזוטר טובאץ...ש
Here again, the Bar Yochni appears as a bird with an exceptionally large egg. But while Rabbi Abahu, a named Amora, makes the initial statement, the question and answer is anonymous and in Aramaic, and of the style of the setama. And furthermore, as I argue in the general case, you can almost always find what is stated by the setama stated elsewhere, in another context, attributed to a named Amora, which means that the setama, while creative, will rely on existing Talmudic material and will apply it to new contexts. Here, I would posit, the anonymous setama is taking the gemara in Bechorot as evidence for the existence of this large egg of the Bar Yuchni and applying it to his systematic analysis of the Amoraic-level gemara.

The third reference to the Bar Yochni can be found in Sukkah 5a-b:
סוכה דף ה, א גמרא
רב הונא אמר מהכא (ויקרא טז) על פני הכפורת קדמה ואין פנים פחות מטפח
ואימא כאפי
סוכה דף ה, ב גמרא
דבר יוכני
תפשת מרובה לא תפשת תפשת מועט תפשת
ואימא כאפי דציפרתא דזוטר טובא
...
Once again, while Rav Huna, a named Amora, makes a statement, the give and take is anonymous, in Aramaic, and in the style of the setama di-gemara. Indeed, they are the same questions as we find in the gemara in Yoma.

I would posit that the setamaist never saw a bar yochni. He is relying entirely on the account in Bechorot. The gemara in Bechorot described the Bar Yochni as a bird with an extraordinarily-sized egg. The setama in Yoma used this to ask a question and provide an answer. And the setama in Sukkah saw this precedent and asked a similar question, just based on the face of the Bar Yochni rather than its egg. While the gemara in Bechorot does not describe the size of the Bar Yochni's face, it stands to reason that with such an exceptionally large egg, capable or drowning 60 towns, it is a large bird in general and therefore has an exceptionally large face.

Therefore, the application of the setama in Sukkah should not be used to define features of the actual Bar Yochni bird, and it should then not discount the ostrich as a candidate, even though the ostrich has a face indeed the size of a tefach.

Even an ostrich is not this exceptional size, that its egg can drown 60 cities. Should we conclude that the Bar Yochni in general is an allegory, and that they did not intend any actual bird? Well, the number 60 in terms of 60 towns is what Maharatz Chayos would call a guzma, and perhaps these "magic numbers" indeed should convey to us that it is intended as allegory. But I am not at all positive that the Bar Yochni was a fictional bird. Let us reexamine the context in the gemara in Bechorot:
העיד רבי ישמעאל בן סתריאל מערקת לבינה לפני רבי במקומנו מפשיטין את המתה ומלבישין את החי
אמר רבי נתגלה טעמא של משנתינו
חזירין שבמקומנו יש להם ששים רבוא קלפים בבית המסס שלו
פעם אחת נפל ארז אחד שבמקומנו ועברו שש עשרה קרונות על חודו אחת
פעם אחת נפלה ביצת בר יוכני וטבעה ששים כרכים ושברה שלש מאות ארזים
ומי שדיא ליה והא כתיב (איוב לט) כנף רננים נעלסה
אמר רב אשי ההוא מוזרתא הואי:
Thus, this Rabbi Yishmael is talking about the strange and excessively large dimensions in Arkat Levena. And so he speaks about arazim, cedars, of exceptionally large size such that one fell and sixteen wagons were able to pass over it. This does not mean that cedars are metaphorical, and don't exist. It means that the particular cedars in Arkat Levena were this size.

It reminds me of a joke about Texas:
There once was a blind man who decided to visit Texas. When he arrived on the plane, he felt the seats and said, "Wow, these seats are big!" The person next to him answered, "Everything is big in Texas."

When he finally arrived in Texas, he decided to visit a bar. Upon arriving in the bar, he ordered a beer and got a mug placed between his hands. He exclaimed, "Wow these mugs are big!" The bartender replied, "Everything is big in Texas."

After a couple of beers, the blind man asked the bartender where the bathroom was located. The bartender replied, "Second door to the right." The blind man headed for the bathroom, but accidentally tripped over and skipped the second door. Instead, he entered the third door, which lead to the swimming pool and fell into the pool by accident.

Scared to death, the blind man started shouting, "Don't flush, don't flush!"
Perhaps there is a metaphorical explanation, or perhaps things were large and this is mere exaggeration. Either way, this does not mean that there were no cedars elsewhere, which were real. Just like there are indeed airplane seats, mugs, and toilets outside of Texas.

The cedar is a big tree, so it makes sense that the typical Bar Yochani is a big bird, and a real one -- just not typically, or really, as big as described in Bechorot. The egg, outside of Arkat Levena and Texas, might be big -- for example the size of an ostrich egg -- but not typically so big as to drown 60 towns. If so, the Bar Yochni can be a real creature; perhaps an ostrich, or perhaps an entirely separate bird.

While Rabbi Slifkin notes that the Musaf HaAruch notes that it is a metaphorical, rather than actual bird, I see that Jastrow's entry on the bar Yochani (page 568) says that it is a fabulous bird; but in square brackets, he writes [Koh. Ar. Compl. s.v. בר, vol. II pg. 176 refers to Varaghna (Bactrian) ostrich.]

This Persian etymology for בר יוכני makes sense to me, gh is more or less a kh sound, and that it refers to a large bird such as the ostrich is compelling -- even aside from the other basis of declaring it an ostrich, based on Talmudic linkages to the bird in Iyov, which is likely an ostrich. See here for other fantastic features of Varaghna birds, though not at all necessarily the same one.

There is one major problem with declaring the Bar Yochani the ostrich. The gemara in Menachot 66b describes a feature which seems not to match the ostrich. And this is the bird linked to the Bar Yochani. Thus, in Menachot:
ואומר (משלי ז) נתעל"סה באהבים נשא ונתן ונעלה ונשמח ונתחטא באהבים
ואומר (איוב לט) כנף רננים נע"לסה נושא עולה ונתחטא
Rashi there equates it with the Bar Yochni, and also explains the gemara (correctly) to mean that נע"לסה is an acronym for "it carries it (=the egg), ascends, and descends (placing it down in the nest). Yet an ostrich does not do this!

I would guess that Rashi's basis for associating this with the Bar Yochni is that in the gemara in Bechorot, prior to Rav Ashi's elaboration, the gemara cites this pasuk, with the impled question of why the egg would drop and shatter in this way, which is why Rav Ashi explains that it was an unfertilized egg.

We could say that where the gemara posed this question, it was merely the setama filling in the shakla vetarya to help it flow better -- indeed, this occurs often -- such that this was never Rav Ashi's question. I wonder if one could fill in a different cause, such as making it not a hard egg containing a baby Bar Yochni, but one which would shatter over a large area, and also explaining וטבעה. But if we do, we not only cut away the "problematic" behavior for an ostrich, but the very connection to the ostrich in the first place. Aside from the having of large eggs -- and the exaggeration would be perhaps greater for Texas and Arkat Levana if the Bar Yochani were generally a small bird -- the connection to the ostrich is via the verses in Iyov, which Rabbi Slifkin demonstrates are quite descriptive of the ostrich. Cut out the question, and we cut out Iyov, and we have almost no basis for claiming the Bar Yochni is an ostrich! Well, not really -- we still have the etymology relating it to the Varghna ostrich.

But it does make sense, based on the egg size, that we are referring to an ostrich. And it seems that this was the assumption in our gemara in Bechorot as well. For otherwise, why pose this question, and relate it to the gemara in Iyov? And it works out nicely based on etymology. What then, are we to do with this "difficult" feature of the Bar Yochni / kenaf rananim?

I would merely be forced into the position that not all zoological knowledge put forth in the gemara is entirely accurate. Either we can reinterpret the gemara in Menachot (and perhaps also Bechorot) about the animal's behavior, or else we could say that it was based on faulty contemporary knowledge. This is what I say about certain aggadot regarding techelet. There is sufficient and convincing evidence, based on archaeological evidence as well as some gemaras, that murex trunculus was indeed the techelet of Chazal. But a brayta about how often the chilazon surfaced may be based on faulty contemporary Greek accounts of how often the chilazon frequented the shores. And it is overly pious to insist that therefore we have not identified the chilazon, for we would never find a creature that truly matches it. Just as we would not say that the gemara, and Tosafot, were not talking about elephants because they refer to an elephant jumping. And just as we would not say that our bovines are not the same as the bovines of Chazal because Chazal's bovines were constructed in a way that a needle could get to the liver in a normal way after being consumed. And that ancient accounts of lions were not of lions, because they claimed that lions were stillborn, and only came to life after three days.

We are faced with a derasha from a pasuk, perhaps one that accords with contemporary zoological beliefs in the time of Chazal; but that does not mean that Chazal made a careful study of the nesting habits of ostriches.

And so, to conclude, I believe that an ostrich is a solid candidate for the Bar Yochani, and that it was believed to be a real bird; though the gemara in Bechorot might have involved Chazal's true beliefs, in which case it would have been intended literally (for our beliefs, and sense of plausibility, is not the same as Chazal's); or allegorically; or else as an exaggeration.

Monday, August 04, 2008

Does The Gemara Predict That America Will Fall At the Hands Of Iran?

So it does, according to a quote taken out of context over at Dreaming Of Moshiach:

עתידה רומי ליפול ביד פרס

This quote from Yoma 10a purportedly means a nuclear strike by Iran on the US.

My problem with this is manifold. But just for starters, two points:

1) I do not accept the premise that the US is equal to Romi, which the gemara is talking about.

2) That is one opinion in the gemara. The other opinion, which she conveniently omits (or else was unaware of), is עתידה פרס שתפול ביד רומי -- that Persia (Iran) will fall in the hands of Rome (which she has equated with the United States). And looking at the gemara, it is a dispute. Why mention one position and not the other? Because this is what is being done in general -- interpreted disparate, highly selected quotes, out of context.

Let us try to learn through this gemara and attempt to get a sense of its peshat.

In Yoma 10a:
אמר רבי יהושע בן לוי אמר רבי עתידה רומי שתפול ביד פרס שנאמר (ירמיהו מט) לכן שמעו עצת ה' אשר יעץ [אל] אדום ומחשבותיו אשר חשב [אל] יושבי תימן אם לא יסחבום צעירי הצאן אם לא ישים עליהם נוהם
מתקיף לה רבה בר עולא מאי משמע דהאי צעירי הצאן פרס הוא דכתיב (דנייאל ח) האיל אשר ראית בעל הקרנים מלכי מדי ופרס ואימא יון דכתיב (דנייאל ח) והצפיר השעיר מלך יון
כי סליק רב חביבא בר סורמקי אמרה קמיה דההוא מרבנן אמר ליה מאן דלא ידע פרושי קראי מותיב תיובתא לרבי
מאי צעירי הצאן זוטרא דאחוהי
דתני רב יוסף תירס זה פרס

אמר רבה בר בר חנה אמר רבי יוחנן משום ר' יהודה ברבי אלעאי עתידה רומי שתפול ביד פרס
קל וחומר ומה מקדש ראשון שבנאוהו בני שם והחריבוהו כשדיים נפלו כשדיים ביד פרסיים מקדש שני שבנאוהו פרסיים והחריבוהו רומיים אינו דין שיפלו רומיים ביד פרסיים
אמר רב עתידה פרס שתפול ביד רומי
אמרו ליה רב כהנא ורב אסי לרב בנויי ביד סתורי
אמר להו אין גזירת מלך היא
איכא דאמרי אמר [להו] אינהו נמי הא קא סתרי בי כנישתא
תניא נמי הכי עתידה פרס שתפול ביד רומי חדא דסתרי בי כנישתא ועוד גזירת מלך הוא שיפלו בונין ביד סותרין
דאמר רב יהודה אמר רב אין בן דוד בא עד שתפשוט מלכות רומי הרשעה בכל העולם כולו תשעה חדשים שנאמר (מיכה ג) לכן יתנם עד עת יולדה ילדה ויתר אחיו ישובון על בני ישראל

I am not going to take the time to translate here. But a rough summary. First, Rabbi Yehoshua ben Levi cited Rabbi {Yehuda HaNassi} that Rome will fall in the hands of Persia. And there is a proof from a pasuk. And then, Rabba bar bar Chana cites Rabbi Yochanan who cited Rabbi Yehuda beRabbi Illai. This is the plain Rabbi Yehuda we see in the Mishna. And he says the same thing, that Rome will fall in the hands of Persia. His proof is from a kal vachomer. If the first Temple was built by the sons of Shem and destroyed by the Kasdim, and the Kasdim then fell at the hands of Persia (namely, Belshatzar at the hands of Daryavesh the Mede and Koresh the Parthian), then the second Temple, which the Parthians built, if it was destroyed by Romans, then certainly the Romans should fall at the hands of the Parthians.

Perhaps a little bit of biography and history is relevant here. Rabbi Yehuda haNassi and Rabbi Yehuda beRabbi Illai lived in Israel, under Roman rule. And there was Roman oppression in those days. Indeed, Rabbi Yehuda beRabbi Illai received semicha during a time it was forbidden, and was forced to flee Hadrian's persecution (see Wikipedia). Roman rule was not so good, and besides, they destroyed the Beis HaMikdash.

In his days, there was indeed struggles between the Romans and the Persians. Here is a page at Wikipedia, dedicated to discussing Roman relations with the Parthians and Sassanids. To cite:
In the first century AD the balance of power shifted emphatically in favour of the Romans. A series of invasions repeatedly overran Mesopotamia and sacked the Parthian capital of Ctesiphon, made substantial territorial gains in northern Mesopotamia and benefited from the manipulation of frequent Parthian dynastic civil wars, which eventually undermined the Parthian state. Under Caracalla an interesting twist in Parthian relations occurred. After submitting a request to marry the daughter of Persian king Artabanus (potentially allowing an heir to assume control of both empires) Caracalla massacred the diplomatic party sent to arrange the marriage and attempted a Persian invasion in 216. This was eventually unsuccessful and the Persians soon retaliated, inflicting heavy losses on the Romans.
Rabbi Yehuda beRabbi Illai both were about the second century CE. But they were predicting an eventual Persian victory over the Romans.

The gemara continues with an opinion of Rav, that Persia would fall at the hands of Rome, rather than vice versa. And he gives reasons, and there is a brayta in accordance with this position. (Though a brayta would presumbly be earlier.) Rav lived in Bavel, and Bavel was under Persian rule. First it was the Parthians, but then the Sassanian dynasty took over from the Parthians. They were still Persians. This transition was just in the time of Rav and Shmuel.

To continue that Wikipedia article where we left off:
The replacement of the Parthian Empire by that of the Sassanids, which was more stable and effectively organised, shifted the balance of power against the Romans. Frequent Persian aggression during the third century placed Roman defences under severe strain, but the Romans were eventually successful in warding these off and avoiding any territorial losses. Indeed, they eventually made significant gains towards the end of the century, although these were reversed in the mid-fourth century. By that time, as Rome had become monotheistic like the Persians with their Zoroastrianism, conflicts attained the added religious dimension. It is in this format that the future of Roman-Persian relations would be played out over the remaining centuries, continuing into the Byzantine era. Neither side would wage an entirely victorious war against the other, and the alternation between hostilities and diplomacy would continue.
See also this Wikipedia article on Roman-Persian wars. We get to see who eventually won, or lost -- they both did:
The resources expended during the Roman–Persian Wars ultimately proved catastrophic for both empires. The prolonged and escalating warfare of the sixth and seventh centuries left them exhausted and vulnerable in the face of the sudden emergence and expansion of the Caliphate, whose forces invaded both empires only a few years after the end of the last Roman–Persian war. Benefiting from their weakened condition, the Arab Muslim armies swiftly conquered the entire Sassanid Empire and deprived the Eastern Roman Empire of its Near Eastern and North African territories.
Thus, perhaps we can say that Rabbi Yehudah BeRabbi Illai and Rav were correct, in a sense. Persia fell because of Rome, and Rome fell because of Persia. But perhaps that is a kvetch.

At any rate, when these statements were made in the gemara, there was a real Roman empire and a real Persian empire, and these were constantly clashing -- and so these statements had some reality and weight. It would be like declarations, during the Cold War, of a Russian victory or an American victory.

Applying these statements to modern times is tempting -- particularly because the end of the gemara cited ties in Rav's predicted Roman victory into a statement of Rav Yehuda citing Rav about the wicked Roman empire spread over the entire world, immediately before Mashiach.

However, I find it difficult to apply these statements to modern times. They were talking about a real Roman empire, which is now long gone. They were not equating Romi with the United States of America, a connection I find far-fetched and often based on the speculation into Torah Codes. And they were talking about a real Persian empire, not a dinky little country like Iran, that happens to be situated on ancient Persia.

Indeed, my guess is either that one or both of their predictions came to be a long, long time ago, or else they were both simply mistaken in their assessment and prediction. This was, after all, based a lot on sevara.

Plug: Check out my Rif Yomi blog.

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