Thursday, October 08, 2009

Must one sit in a succah when one works in Manhattan?

Note: Not halacha lemaaseh. Consult your local Orthodox rabbi.

This is something that occurred to me back when I was working in Manhattan. On a typical non-Succos day, I would eat at my desk. It was not such a schlep to eat in a Succah, since Chabad made a nice Succah on 42nd Street, in front of the public library. But depending on where one worked, it could be a trip many blocks out of the way. And perhaps if one factored in the time to order lunch, go to the succah, and return to work, there would be no time to eat. And eating in restaurants which did not have a succah (say, on a date, or for work) is also problematic. And undoubtably, some people took non-motzi and mezonot to sort of avoid the issue.

But is such really necessary? It seems to me that it is nowhere near clear-cut. In fact, I would lean heavily towards saying that it is not necessary. Though according to Magen Avraham, it might well be necessary. Of course, this post is not intended halacha lemaaseh, so consult your local Orthodox rabbi who could likely explain why I am an ignoramus here. And your individual case may easily be different from the case I am envisioning. At the very least, if we mattir this, the typical Jew in New York will end up not entering into a succah for most of Succos. After all, we don't sleep in a succah. If we eliminate most chol hamoed day meals, and many restaurant meals, from the obligation, how will we feel that it is Sukkos? And how will we have teshvu?

Also, regardless of whether it is strictly obligatory, the gemara records a praiseworthy chumra that some adopted to not eat anything outside a succah. And one presumably gets sechar for eating in a succah even if not obligated. (Indeed, it is quite possible that even a non-Jewish person gets such sechar.)

But still, it seems to me that it is not necessarily obligatory.

Let us start at the beginning, in the gemara in Succah, daf 26a. The gemara there states:
ת"ר הולכי דרכים ביום פטורין מן הסוכה ביום וחייבין בלילה
הולכי דרכים בלילה פטורין מן הסוכה בלילה וחייבין ביום
הולכי דרכים ביום ובלילה פטורין מן הסוכה בין ביום ובין בלילה
הולכין לדבר מצוה פטורין בין ביום ובין בלילה
Thus, those who travel by day are exempt from Succah by day and obligated at night; those who travel at night are exempt from Succah by night and obligated by day; those who travel by day and night are exempt from Succah during both day and night; and those who travel for the sake of a precept are exempt whether by day or night.

Why should this be?

Rashi explains (there):
הולכי דרכים ביום פטורין מן הסוכה ביום - דכתיב בסוכות תשבו כעין ישיבת ביתו כשם שכל השנה אינו נמנע מלכת בדרך בסחורה כך כל ימות החג שאינו יום טוב לא הצריכו הכתוב למנוע:
Since the pasuk states Basukkos teishvu, and Chazal darshen that teshvu means ke'ein taduru, as one typically dwells, that it should be as he typically dwells in his house, then just as throughout the year he would not refrain from traveling on the road to do business, so too throughout all the days of the chag which are not Yom Tov, the Scriptures do not require him to refrain.

Tosafot say the same thing, though also connect mitztaer pater min hasuccah with the same derivation:
הולכי דרכים ביום. כל זה נפקא מתשבו כעין תדורו שכשם שאדם בביתו אינו נמנע מלצאת לדרך. וכן מצטער דפטרו לעיל מן הסוכה היינו מתשבו כעין תדורו דאין אדם דר במקום שמצטער:

This carries over to practical paskened halacha.

Moving now to Tur, Orach Chaim, siman 640, the Tur says (image reconstructed by pulling different parts from the page):

Looking to the right, we see that Tur basically cites the brayta from masechet Sukkah, lehalachah.

Bet Yosef, in his commentary on Tur, states that it is a brayta in Succah 26a, and then cites Tosafot on that page that it is because of teshvu ke'ein taduru -- just as a person in his house does not refrain from going out on the road.

But this is not all that he says. He has another followup comment, which is unfortunately too small too see as an embedded image on my blog. Right-click and open the image in a new window or tab to see it larger.

Alternatively, all that he does is cite the Orchos Chaim, hilchot Succah, seif 33, from Rabbi Aharon HaKohen miLunil, which I will provide next, so simply look at the next image. But to translate: It is written in Orchos Chaim that "those who travel by day are exempt from Succah by day and are exempt by night. And if they are on the road, or in a place where there is no settlement, they are exempt even by night, for he is not able to make a dwelling there. And those who travel at night are exempt by night, etc., to explain, that if he can go on the road but he knows that he will need to eat before he finds a succah, he does not need to refrain because of this." And he writes further that "And so {since} those who travel by day are obligated at night, there is to say that those who travel to towns to claim their debts of chol haMoed of the chag, they must return to their homes at night to eat in a Succah, if they do not have a Succah in that town. And even though there is room for a litigant to argue, one who is stringent, blessings shall come upon him."

Orchos Chaim, inside:
"33: Agents going to perform a precept are exempt from Succah, whether by day or night.

Those who travel by day are exempt from Succah by day and are obligated at night. And if they are on the road, or in a place where there is no settlement, they are exempt even at night, for he is not able to make there a dwelling.

Those who travel by night are exempt from Succah at night and are obligated by day. To explain, that if he is able to travel on the road and knows that he will need to eat before he will find a Succah, he is not required to refrain {from traveling} because of this, because he is exempt from this. And the reason is that teshvu means ke'ein taduru, as you typically dwell. And just as, when he is in his house, he does not refrain from traveling for his business dealings, whether by day or night, so too here.

And since those traveling by day they are exempt {by day}, {but} at night they are obligated, there is to say that those who travel to the towns to seek out their debts {owed to them by gentiles, which one is permitted to collect on chol haMoed, as a davar haavud} on chol haMoed of the chag, they are required to return to their homes at night in order to eat in the Succah, if there is no Succah in that town. And even though there is room for a litigant to argue, one who is stringent, blessing should come upon him.

Those who watch the town by day are exempt from Succah by day and are obligated at night. Those who watch the town by mohjy are exempt from Succah at night and are obligated by day. Those who watch gardens and orchards are exempt whether by day or night, for if the watchman makes a Succah, the theif knows that there is an established place for him {the watchman}, and he will steal from another place. And Rabbi P. {?} za"l wrote that this is a support for those who make wine amongst the gentiles, that they do not make a Succah whether by day or night, for they must make a watch over the wine, because of Nisuch {from the gentiles}, end quote."
This is what Beis Yosef says, and cites in his commentary to Tur. Turning now to Shulchan Aruch, we can see what he says:

Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim siman 640. We see that Rav Yosef Karo only cites the words of the Tur, but not the words of the Orchot Chaim.

I would note that Orchot Chaim said two things. The first was a commentary of what peturin means, that he need not refrain from traveling even if he won't encounter a Succah, and that the Mechaber chooses briefer language does not mean that he argues. The second, about those traveling to towns of gentiles to collect their debts, I would say was a chumra. For it is "obvious" that this was part of their travels and that they are unable to make a Succah there, such that it is like a yishuv. The reason Bet Yosef cited it, and indeed the language of the Orchos Chaim, that it is because they are obligated by night, is because of the chumra of it, that they need to return to their home towns at night. That the Mechaber doesn't bring this down lehalacha in Shulchan Aruch seems to me more meaningful, that he is something of a "litigant" and thinks that this is a chumra rather than actual halacha.

At any rate, that would be for Sefardim. We Ashkenazim rely on the Rema, who does bring it down.

First the Rema cites the Ran, who gives the explanation we saw some of before, as explanation: that this that they are "obligated by night" is specifically where they are able to find a succah, but if they are not able to find a Succah, they are able to go on their way, even if they will not be able to settle their during either day or night. Just like the other days of the year, that one does not abandon the road because of his home. And even though he only travels by day, he is exempt even by night.

And then he cites the aforementioned Orchos Chaim, via the Beis Yoseif: And those who travel to towns to claim their debts and do not have a Succah in those towns, they should be stringent upon themselves to return to their homes every night to eat in a Succah. And even though there is room to be lenient, still, one who is stringent, blessings shall come upon him.

Turning now to Magen Avraham, on the side of Shulchan Aruch.
And they are obligated at night: When they sleep over at night in a settled area (Tosafot and Ran). It imples that he needs to make there a Succah, and as is written in Orchot Chaim, and this is his language: "And since those traveling by day are obligated at night, there is to say that those who travel to towns {to collect debts} should be stringent upon them selves to return to their homes if there is no succah in that town. And even though there is room for a litigant to argue, one who is stringent, blessings shall come upon him." End quote from the Bet Yosef. To explain this, by law they are obligated to make there a Succah, and if they do not make one, they are obligated to return to their homes, even though there is to say that if they do not have a succah at the time of eating, they are exempt, just as if rain fell, that they do not need to wait. Even so, one who is stringent, blessings should come upon him, for this is called negligence, since he should have made a succah there. And all of this is about those who travel from one town to another in order to collect their debts, but if one remains in one town three or four days, he is obligated to build a succah there, and as is written at the end of this siman.

And the Levush writes that one is not obligated to make a succah among the heathens, and this that it states "they are obligated at night" is where there is a succah there in the place that they sleep. And this is not precise. For behold, Tosafot write that then one reaches the settled area he is obligated; and the place of heathens is also called a settled area. And furthermore, since this that it states "they are exempt by day," this is that they need not wait until they reach a succah. And if so, day and night are equal, and it should have stated plaintly that if he wishes to eat and there is no succah, he need not wait; and what is it to me that he is traveling on the road or staying in his house. Rather, perforce, this is what it means to say: Those who travel by day are exempt by day -- even if they reach an inn, they are not required to establish themselves there and make a succah there, since their intent is to travel immediately, and they are obligated at night to make there a succah. And so seems implied from the language of Rashi and the Ran precisely. And therefore one should be stringent.

And so writes the Bet Yosef in the name of the Orchos Chaim that they are only exempt when they sleep on the road, or in a place where there is no settlement, see there. However, if he comes to a town close to the time of eating, he does not need to wait for the construction of a succah, just as by the falling of rain. And if he is in the field even all the days of the chag, he does not need to trouble himself and construct there a succah, as is stated in the gemara, at the beginning of daf 26, that there is no settlement there.

Skipping his comments on shomrei hair, and going to the next comment now.

In Magen Avraham, the next comment: Those who sit in a shop, even though they are used to, in most times, to eat during the day there, even so, during Sukkot, there are obligated to eat in a succah, similar to how those who watch by day are required to make a succah there, so too they are obligated to make a succah there, even if they dwell outside the city while their shops are in the city, they are obligated to construct there a succah in the city, for there is his house.

In the Yerushalmi, Rav Huna was traveling on the road and was thirsty, and he did not wish to drink until he reached a succah.

This ends my citation of Magen Avraham. From here, I can see plenty of reason to require one to eat in a succah when working in Manhattan. But I don't find this Magen Avraham entirely convincing.

Firstly, he seems to make a diyuk from "if there is no succah in this town." But that is obvious, that if there is a succah readily available, if one is being machmir, one should only be machmir to go sleep in that succah in the town, rather than going all the way home.

Secondly, it seems to me that he is ignoring the major diyuk in the Orchos Chaim. The whole requirement in this chumra was predicated on the idea that "one is travels by day is exempt by day and is obligated by night." So the Orchos Chaim is talking about what to do by night. Since he traveled to the town during the day, the entirety of the day was exempt, and so he need not eat in a succah if the town does not have one, and need not construct one. Only at night does the brayta say he is obligated, and this is used by Orchos Chaim as a foothold for his chumra. Now at night he is obligated, so he must either sleep in a succah if such is available in town, or else go home to his hometown where he has his succah. And Orchos Chaim even admits that such is a chumra, and tavo alav bracha, but that there is room for a litigant to argue. The very valid argument is that this is part of his travels. His travels took him to a place where there is no succah available to him, and so he does not have a choice. (Plus, the idea of constructing other succahs in other locations might be questionable, as being soter his original succah at home.)

The reasoning behind all this is indeed teshvu ke'ein taduru. There is no negligence involved in not constructing a succah there! He should treat his succah in his home town as his residence. For a meal, he would not return all the way home. (And by extension, if work took him to a distant town, he would not go all the way home to sleep, but would rest there. Which is why the litigant has a very good counterargument against this chumra.)

If this was indeed what Orchos Chaim meant, then he should have also said that one should return home during the day to eat if there is no succah; or else build a succah there. Rather, I think he means something much like the Levush.

And in terms of saying "if there is no yishuv", this is just speaking about the instance where he was traveling by day, and needs to sleep at night, that since at night he is obligated, I would think he would be obligated to find or build a succah. Therefore Orchos Chaim says that if there is no yishuv, he is exempt even at night. But he certainly is agreeing here to the day / night distinction.

Thus, in my humble opinion, I don't believe that Magen Avraham is reading Orchos Chaim correctly, and Orchos Chaim rather maintains that there is a general exemption over the course of the day for someone who has traveled for business purposes during the day.

I am not the only one astounded by Magen Avraham. Aruch Hashulchan differs with him as well
Let us look to Aruch Hashulchan's write-up as well. In Aruch Hashulchan, Orach Chaim, siman 640, seif 17. He cites the brayta from Succah 26a about those who travel by day, those who travel by night, etc.

Then, he cites Rashi and Tosafot's explanation that this comes from teishvu keein taduru, that one would not refrain from going from his house on the road, or for some other matter, and so he will not refrain from leaving the Succah.

And then he expands his commentary: When one travels by day, he is exempt from Succah even when he encounters a Succah, and need not delay there in order to eat, but rather may continue on his way, and should simply eat on the road {without a Succah} when he reaches the time he would normally eat. But at night, when he does not travel, but rather sleeps, he is obligated in Succah, and so he should sleep there, and is not permitted to travel from there and sleep in a place where there is no Succah.

And those who travel at night are obligated during the day to eat in a Succah when they encounter it. But if they do not encounter a Succah, they are exempt. And we do not say to him to make a Succah. And just as we would not expect him to build a house on the road, so too he would not build a Succah on the road.

And there is one who obligates him to make a Succah (namely the Magen Avraham, seif katan 15), and these are astonishing things! For certainly if he needs to be in some place for a long time, behold it is to him there like his house, and he is obligated to make a Succah. But when he merely sleeps over there or is delayed there a day or two, how do we obligate him to make for himself there a Succah. [And this that a watchman of grain is obligated is because he dwells there many days, as was explained.]

In seif 18, Aruch Hashulchan continues: And so is made clear from the words of Rabbeinu the Rema, in seif 8, and these are his words: "and this is specifically where they are able to find a Succah, but if they do not find a Succah, they are able to travel on their way even though they do not dwell therein during either day or night. {Just as} During the rest of the days of the year, where one does not leave off from his travels because of his house. And even though he only travels during the day, he is exempt even during the night, for he cannot make for himself there a dwelling. And those who travel to towns to collect their debts and do not have for themselves a succah in those towns, they should be machmir upon themselves to return to their homes every night in order to eat in a succah; and even though there is to be lenient, even so, one who is stringent, blessings should come upon him."

That is to say that those who always travel to the towns which are about the city, it is the case that at times even during the rest of the year they return to their houses every night. And therefore, one should do this during succot as well. And this is within the realm of teshvu keein taduru. And yet, by law, one cannot obligate them , because in the majority of cases they do not return to their homes, for we going after the majority of days [see Bava Btra 29b, regarding peddlars etc., see there]. And therefore, he wrote the language of chumra for it is fitting to be stringent, since at times they return every night. However, at any rate, we learn from his words that there is no obligation to make a succah, but rather, if he finds a succah, he is obligated to dwell there in it.

Now, in terms of a worker in Manhattan eating outside a Sukkah, there are other possible inputs. For example, how does this factor into those who sit in a shop in a town, and whether they need to build a succah. And I think there is a relevant Maharil as well.

But it seems to me that, ignoring the Magen Avraham for a moment, someone in Manhattan who is not allowed (by law) to build a succah and does not have a succah available to him should be able to eat a sandwich outside of a succah. He should be exempt from Succah just like the fellow who went to another town without a succah in order to collect his debts.

Indeed, the idea of bassukot teshvu is teshvu ke'ein taduru, and what person who works in Manhattan travels back to the suburbs to his home in order to eat breakfast or lunch?! He certainly goes home to sleep, but this eating is not part of his teshvu.

This if he regularly eats at his desk. If he goes to a restaurant and eats there, and there is no succah in that restaurant, what of it? He wouldn't order take-out and then take his lunch to his house outside of Manhattan! So why should he need to sit in a succah. He traveled to Manhattan to work, and is thus patur min hasuccah during the day.

Of course, if there is a succah immediately available, he should eat in it. But what if the Succah is annoying, such that he would typically not eat there from the aggravation? Mitztaer patur min hasukkah, for the same reason of teshvu keein taduru. By aggravation, I mean smell and crowds. Chabad does a wonderful job of setting up sukkahs all over the place, but years ago I bought food from a restaurant, walked the 5 blocks over to the sukkah (such that my lunch break was almost over), and saw that people hadn't properly disposed of their garbage because there were many people and not enough garbage bins. I didn't like how crowded it was, I didn't like the smell, and I didn't like the mess. Were I at home, I would have taken my food and eaten it outside. But out of guilt, I ate my food in the only succah available to me.

Of course, this is nowhere near simple, and different situations would have different analyses and different results.

I am not sure we should even give Magen Avraham a second thought. Especially since if we do, it means we are being choshesh for him and so we in effect pasken like him, the more stringent position. But if we do, it is much more complicated.

If one is a poshea for not building a succah during the day to use, and we were only talking about being patur for the period immediately after arrival, then what is involved in finding or constructing such a succah? Then we have more of a need for the modern innovation of a pop-up succah. Now, one cannot simply construct a Succah anywhere in Manhattan. It is against the law, and to stay within the law one needs to apply for a permit, which may or may not be granted. But the time that it would take to construct a Succah could also be spent traveling 10 or 20 blocks to a Chabad succah or to a restaurant with a succah where you can buy a meal. If, as per Magen Avraham, one is actually obligated in the non-immediate case, then such an effort, even if a hassle, might be mandated. Or maybe not. This would once again be travel; whereas in his area there may not be a succah. How much of an effort, and how much travel, should be required? And if we say that while traveling, he need not wait until he reaches a succah, perhaps this can be comparable. So according to Magen Avraham, it seems possible that there would still be this requirement.

But if we don't maintain like the Magen Avraham, but like me as I laid out, or like Aruch Hashulchan for Aruch HaShulchan's reasons, then it seems to me that in many (but not all) cases, a commuting worker to Manhattan should be patur from Succah, and can eat at his desk or local restaurant.

Also, see Mishnah Berurah here.

Once again, to stress: Talk to your local Orthodox rabbi, because besides the fact that I might be wrong, everything is dependent upon the details of the particular situation.


Rabbi Joshua Maroof said...

After all, we don't sleep in a succah.

Who is "we"? Speak for yourself!

I agree with your analysis and have thought along similar lines for many years now.

Devorah said...

The Lubavitcher Rebbe said not to sleep in the sukkah.... because the sukkah is a holy place, therefore we shouldn't sleep in it.

Just thought I'd mention that.

also, yasher koach Josh, you just wrote that "you could be wrong".... hehe

joshwaxman said...

rabbi maroof:


i try to do that, and add a whole bunch of caveats, whenever i address "controversial" halacha. i personally think that my analysis is correct and should uncontroversial, but in the end, it is at odds with popular sentiment and practice. and so i do my best to strongly caution people to consult their LOR. after all, one shouldn't just trust things they see on the Internet, including my own halachically-oriented musings.

the downside is that just as i can consider myself possibly wrong, i can consider the rebbe as almost certainly wrong.

in terms of the Lubavitcher Rebbe's suggestion, i think it is wonderful apologetics. but that it is certainly not true, because it goes against the very idea of succah. teshvu keein taduru means we treat it as our home. the biblical command is to eat in the succah, drink in the succah, talk in the succah, and sleep in the succah. and the tannaim, amoraim, and rishonim did sleep in the succah, even though it was holy.

the rebbe, zatza"l, was likely justifying *existing* practice using various chassidic / kabbalistic practices.

the most likely reason people did not sleep in the succah is that it was too cold in europe. and this is indeed likely halachic, and speaks to issues of teshvu ke'ein taduru.

i saw a picture recently of someone's succah which had an air conditioner in it. while people thought it funny, this is likely the way we should be doing it nowadays.

we should put heaters in our succahs, if we can ensure that they are safe, so that we would normally sleep in them. and we *should* sleep in the Succah, as Rabbi Maroof correctly asserts.

kol tuv,

J. said...

If anyone wants, I can send them a massive article by R. Chaim Rapoport about the minhag of Chabad not to sleep in the sukka. Please email me at

Devorah said...

When asked about this, The Rebbe said not to respond because this question is only asked by those who seek to reignite machlokes and sinas chinam

Joe in Australia said...

I think the view of the Lubavitcher Rebbe Ztz"l was more nuanced than that. As I recall, he said that there were tzaddikim who could not sleep in a sukkah, because to do so would cause them spiritual pain - which would make them exempt, in the same way that physical pain would make you exempt. And that chassidim who strove to emulate these the sensitivity of these tzaddikim and failed could also be exempt, because their failure to reach this level of sensitivity would also cause them pain.

In fact the late Rebbe, Ztz"l, notoriously slept very little, and I don't know how much time he spent in bed during the year. There are stories about other tzaddikkim who also subsisted with very little sleep. I can easily imagine that a person such as this would be distracted by his spiritual experiences and unable to fall asleep in a sukkah.

Rabbi Joshua Maroof said...

Claiming that one should not sleep in the Sukkah as a matter of principle is actually borderline kefirah, being that the requirement to sleep in the Sukkah is a halakha meforeshet agreed upon by all of the Tannaim, Amoraim and Rishonim.

No one, no matter how great, can possibly get up and decide that the mesorah regarding proper fulfillment of mitzvat yeshiva besukkah was incorrect and that, contrary to the dictates of Torah Shebal Peh, one should not sleep in the Sukkah.

For the sake of granting the Rebbe the benefit of the doubt, I will presume that his position on this issue was, indeed, more nuanced.

joshwaxman said...

sure. it sounds interesting. i'll send you an email.

i don't think that this is the reason. rather, as rabbi maroof wrote in his comment, the assertion that one should *not* sleep in a succah as a matter of principle is extremely shocking, and people in the yeshiva world are trained to think in halachic terms and in terms of precedent of the tannaim, amoraim, and rishonim. the response that those who are shocked are trying to incite machlokes seems to me to be a defensive posture of ad hominem attack.

and while "achdus" is an important goal, it is not one that had always overridden other concerns. see for example the reaction of the talmidim of Moshe Rabbenu in Yehoshua perek 22:

personally, i think that the chabad custom has *basis*, just not the one that the Rebbe put forward.

kol tuv,

Anonymous said...

I am only writing this in case others see what Devorah wrote, and are understandably bothered by what she says the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZT"L said.

I will begin by writing that I am Lubavitcher Chossid. The Lubavitcher Rebbe explained the reason why Chabad Chassidim are not noheig to sleep in the Sukkah although they are extremely Mehader B'Mitzvos. This includes the Chumra of not drinking out of the Sukkah. The Heter of not sleeping in a Sukkah we find as early as the Mordechai. It is mentioned in the Poskim especially the Rama and Taz. The Rebbe only explains why in this case Chabad Chassidim do the unusual and rely on this leniency. So the Rebbe clarifies it according to Kaballah. There are numerous similarities, including Chodosh in Chutz Laaretz, Birchas Kohanim daily, and washing for Seudas Shlishis (Shaloh), where there are established leniencies in halacha and they are explained according to Toras Hasod. CH"V the Rebbe never said not to sleep in a Sukkah. The Rebbe was a tremendous example of Misirus Nefesh (which he demanded from his talmidim) for Halachah as is well known.

Regarding the Achdus comment, it is sad that there are those with Sinas Chinam and use the sleeping in the Sukkah as an excuse to hate. As mentioned, the kullah is brought down in the Rishonim.

Thank you Rabbi Maroof for giving the Rebbe the benefit of doubt. If someone told you that Reb Moshe ZT"L said change Mesorah would you believe them? Of course not!

Everything the Rebbe said is widely printed and can be studied by everyone on their own. But not to believe everyone's silliness.

One has to go no farther then to see the esteem that the Gdolei Hador had for the Rebbe to know that he couldn't possibly have said it. You can easily find the words of Reb Moshe, Reb Pinchus Hirshprung, Reb Simcha Elberg, Rav Mordechai Eliyahu, the Baba Sali, Rav Zevin, and tens of great Admurim on the Rebbe. When you see the great esteem these gdolim had for the Rebbe you know he couldn't possibly have said to change Mesora, not regarding Sukkah or anything else.

The Rebbe was at the forefront of the battle preserving Mesorah against assimilation and change and Boruch Hashem today even many of his detracters follow him and are also involved in strengthening Torah and mesorah amongst our bretheren.

My his and all the other aforementioned Gdolim's Zicharon be a Zchus for us.

x said...

Lubavitchers don't sleep in the sukkah. Anonymous, I don't make up stories, I just repeat what I've been taught. And as I wrote, is as I was taught.
Shalom u'bracha!

Devorah said...

A Source:

Joe in Australia said...

I think I should add to what I said a couple of years ago: I don't think it would have been kefira even if the Lubavitcher Rebbe ZTz"L had told people not to sleep in a sukkah. It would be problematic if he had said that there is no mitzva to sleep in a sukkah, but I can't see a problem with simply telling people (for whatever reason) that the mitzva exists, but shouldn't be done (and I stress: this is not what the late Rebbe did). It's well established that our sages have the authority to tell people shev v'al ta'aseh, "don't do this particular mitzva".

Devorah said...

Joe in Australia, I'm Devorah in Australia.

Basically, as you know, the chassidim do whatever the Rebbe does/did.

As the Rebbe didn't sleep in his sukkah, neither did they.

When questioned as to why he didn't sleep in his sukkah, he replied as I wrote above.

This argument is really annoying me for some reason.

I'm not even sure what anyone is trying to say here.... why can't Jews just accept that there are many different interpretations of things in Torah, and two Jews = three opinions...... everyone has his/her own traditions, and it's really not something that needs to be argued and pulled to pieces.

Sleeping in the sukkah, and decorating the sukkah.... are two things which Lubavitchers do not do.


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