Thursday, July 28, 2011

Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu's support for Nir ben Artzi

While many prominent rabbanim have spoken out against Nir Ben Artzi, one who has given him some measure of support is Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu.

As Rabbi Glazerson said over in his name,
R' Shmuel Eliyahu said that there's no prohibition in listening to a psychic who is telling people to do Teshuva.
He is, of course, entitled to his position. But I am not sure how to really parse this statement. Does he think that the psychic is real, and psychics in general are real, and so long as it does not turn people towards idolatry or other sins, it is not Biblically prohibited as chukas Emori, or tamim tihyeh im Hashem Elokecha, or being a navi sheker? Or does he believe that the psychic is not real, but that is irrelevant, because the ends justify the means? My impression from this one quote is that it is closer to the latter.

Considering the first possibility, some people will not like my saying this, but someone can be a great scholar and rabbi and yet be plagued by superstitious beliefs. I don't know the scholarly level of Rav Shmuel Eliyahu, but I am willing to grant him that status. But on the other hand, he is part of an extremely superstitious culture. Let me give you an example.

As the Guardian reports:

Close allies of Iran's president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, have been accused of using supernatural powers to further his policies amid an increasingly bitter power struggle between him and the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

Several people said to be close to the president and his chief of staff, Esfandiar Rahim Mashaei, have been arrested in recent days and charged with being "magicians" and invoking djinns (spirits).
We would (hopefully) laugh at this. No, they have not been invoking djinns, and if they were, it would be to no effect. But this is something taken seriously in Iran, in the general culture. And when people believe such superstitious nonsense in the general culture, then even really smart Jewish people may very well take it as the metzius, and work from there. So that a rabbi, even a great rabbi, believes in superstitious nonsense, does not mean that there is substance to the nonsense.

Considering the second possibility, I am reminded of what a fellow blogger told me about a visit from Rabbi Amnon Yitzchak, with his false apocalyptic threats as a mechanism of moving people to teshuva. He spoke in shul, and while it was not this fellows cup of tea, it was something that resonated well with the Sephardic audience.

I find this distasteful and an improper approach. But for the sake of argument, let us grant this position legitimacy. The quote again was:
R' Shmuel Eliyahu said that there's no prohibition in listening to a psychic who is telling people to do Teshuva.
What Rav Shmuel Eliyahu might not realize is that this is not the only thing this psychic has been telling people. That is why many of the aforementioned rabbanim were concerned. Thus, from the Maariv article:
"In those years, accompanied Ben Artzi quite a few allegations that he messed up marriages with his observations and advice to couples, to the extent of even open a divorce case. Rav Aviner wrote: "To those women who came to get advice, he sometimes emphasized with authority the faults in their husbands as a result, produced dislike and distance in the relationship between the couple. And: "He announced to peacefully-living-together couples that they do not match from heaven and thus disturbed their shalom bayis." Furthermore, he "made matches including very young girls. And an older single girl, he informed that according to the root of her soul she can not get married."
It is not all positive, as Rabbi Eliyahu seems to think. And there are also real casualties in telling people, as Nir does, that the end is near, such that they must move immediately and frantically to Eretz Yisrael. This is not just 'teshuva'. I will cite one story, but I have heard others as well:
Leah said:
I have been so burnt out from all this predictions ,I believed everything specially the warning that we must leave America before Rosh chodesh Sivan, I even Made Aliyah My family suffered greately from culture shock lack of parnassa I depleted all my savings, came back to the states, My family is super messed up: academically ,issues w/ depression,anxiety,and the person who encouraged all of this hardly ever blogs or even says that the presumably Moshiach past away.You are the only one who is very cautious about all these "PREDICTIONS' I wish I WOULDNOT HAVE BEEN SO NAIVE and saved my family and I so much heartache. 
I wonder what Rav Eliyahu would say when confronted with such instances of harm from listening to a psychic who is telling people to do teshuva.

Further, there have been other times in the past where rabbis, even Gedolim, approved of things for the sake of kiruv, and it has led to worse. I am thinking of the haskamos for facilitated communication for autistics. Reading these letters of approval, it seems that it is really only for the sake of kiruv, but should not, for example, be used for setting policy or halacha. Yet they have long since crossed that line, and are somewhat akin to a cult, or a separate sect.

21 comments:

Devorah said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eliyahu said...

I don't know the scholarly level of Rav Shmuel Eliyahu, but I am willing to grant him that status. But on the other hand, he is part of an extremely superstitious culture.

Does this mean what I think it means? Rav Eliyahu, son of the Rishon LeTzion, from a prominent rabbinical Iraqi family, is having aspersions implicitly cast on him because Persian Muslim luncatics are involved in witchcraft?

joshwaxman said...

yes, sort of.

let me put it another way. there is a lot of 'superstition' among Jews from Arab and Muslim countries in the Middle East. for example, the Hamsa.

The hamsa (Arabic: خمسة ‎, also romanized khamsa, meaning lit. "five") is a palm-shaped amulet popular throughout the Middle East and North Africa, and commonly used in jewellery and wall hangings.[1][2] Depicting the open right hand, an image recognized and used as a sign of protection in many societies throughout history, the hamsa provides superstitious defense against the evil eye. It is also known as the hand of Fatima, so named to commemorate Muhammad's daughter Fatima Zahra. Following its incorporation into Jewish tradition via its widespread use in the Islamic world, it was also renamed the hand of Miriam for Miriam, the sister of Moses.

The question is, is the 'superstition' authentic Jewish belief, or is it actually superstition imported from the general culture.

Yes, Iran is not Iraq. I know that, and you know that. But it is an example of how superstition is encoded in the general culture.

Similarly, my proof was not that "luncatics are involved in witchcraft". I don't know that they are involved in witchcraft. The proof was from the fact that people did not laugh at the charges.

It is similar to the acceptability of penis melting zionist robot combs in Sudan, and other similar countries. It is utterly ridiculous, but in Arab and Muslim countries, they don't see how laughable it is.

And yes, the son of the Rishon Letzion (and even the Rishon leTzion) are not immune to the effects of the general culture. Just as the chief Rabbi of England, Jonathan Sacks, is not immune to a Westernizing influence. And the Rambam was not immune to influence from the accursed Greek philosophy, absorbed from Muslim culture.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh - please! Be very careful - speaking about rabbanim in a negative light is lashon hara. Please read Shmirat Ha Lashon for more detailed clarification. The last thing Am Yisrael needs now is public lashon hara about rabbanim. Seriously!

Debbie G.

joshwaxman said...

Debbie G.:

which rabbanim? nir ben artzi, who is not a rabbi? please clarify specifically what is wrong with what i wrote. many people misapply shmiras halashon.

Anonymous said...

"Considering the first possibility, some people will not like my saying this, but someone can be a great scholar and rabbi and yet be plagued by superstitious beliefs. I don't know the scholarly level of Rav Shmuel Eliyahu, but I am willing to grant him that status. But on the other hand, he is part of an extremely superstitious culture."
Josh I believe this is putting Rav Eliyahu in a negative light. If nothing else, it is certainly not a positive statement about him! Plus, by stating he is part of "an extremely superstitious culture" you are putting down Sfaradim in general terms. Yes some people may misapply shmirat halashon, but as the Chafetz Chaim, zt"l said, many people do deny that they have transgressed and should review the laws. I am certainly no expert, but I do try to study Shmirat HaLashon every day and I know that one must be SUPER careful when discussing rabbanim.
(P.S.- Are you 100% sure that Nir ben Artzi doesn't have smicha?)
Debbie G.

joshwaxman said...

in terms of Nir ben Artzi, yes. and in the news video about his abduction, up on his website, which tells HIS side of the story, they mention it as a matter of fact. (more than that, rabbanim such as Rav Aviner have said that he is in fact an absolute am ha'aretz.) nir ben artzi basically assumed the title "HaRav" and "Shlita" for himself, so that he could transition from being the psychic tractor driver (how he started out) to a cult-leader.

Regarding R' Shmuel Eliyahu, that was me trying to be melamed zchus on him! Whether Sfardim are part of a superstitious culture is a matter of fact. I would say that, I as well, am influenced by my surrounding culture, though (given that I have been influenced) I think in a good way. From a Sefardi perspective, many would argue that it is truth, not superstition. But from an Ashkenazic perspective, absolutely. And it is important to filter out or at least recognize the cultural impact, while simultaneously respecting the Torah knowledge. (It is similar to recognizing that Chazal relied on contemporary scientific beliefs, or that Rav Chaim Kanievsky lives in a Bnei Brak culture that believes that Jews and Gentiles have a different number of teeth.) This is important in personal conduct and in applied halacha, and I think that that trumps concerns for the kavod of said rabbanim.

kol tuv,
josh

Anonymous said...

Josh - in Chofetz Chaim, A Daily Companion - Day 68 - I quote:

"This segment begins with the Chofetz Chaim informing us of how terrible it is to speak loshon hora about a talmid chacham.

"Anyone who has attained the status of rav, dayan, or posek is certainly in the category of a talmid chacham and speaking loshon hora of him is a very serious sin.
*Of course, we are forbidden to speak loshon hora even about an am ha'aretz, someone devoid of Torah knowledge.* It is only regarding an apikoros that we are permitted to speak loshon hora."

Day 3:
"When we speak negatively of our fellow Jews, this causes the sins of our people to be noted in Heaven, there they are brought before the Heavenly Throne for judgment. We think we're merely chatting, when in reality, we're delivering the day's caseload to Satan."

Day 4:
"The average person, is simply unaware that the prohibition of loshon hora applies to information that is true. Therefore all Satan needs to do is to present information as being true and most people will readily repeat it, though according to halachah, such talk is absolutely forbidden."

-- Just trying to help out here - I'm seriously not into being "holier than thou."

All the best,
Debbie

joshwaxman said...

thanks.

bli neder, I'll try to respond in a few hours...

joshwaxman said...

Anyone who has attained the status of rav, dayan, or posek is certainly in the category of a talmid chacham and speaking loshon hora of him is a very serious sin.

I will assume that you are speaking here of Rabbi Shmuel Eliyahu. Fine. But what, precisely, is lashon hara?

The average person, is simply unaware that the prohibition of loshon hora applies to information that is true
That I know. This is the difference between motzi shem ra and lashon hara.

But lashon hara is otherwise **unknown** negative information. It is neither unknown nor negative that Rabbi Eliyahu is Sephardi. Nor is it unknown that Sefardim have various beliefs and practices that Askenazim would deem superstitious.

*Of course, we are forbidden to speak loshon hora even about an am ha'aretz, someone devoid of Torah knowledge.*
was this bolded in asterisks for a reason? if about Nir ben Artzi, there are exemptions for toeles. a schochet who actually never trained but misrepresents himself to the public as a shochet should be identified as such. A 'psychic' tractor driver who misrepresents himself to the public as a great rabbi who (they will presume) makes his statements on the basis of deep kabbalistic insights, where people will make life-changing decisions on his say-so, should be exposed as a fraud.

people learn a bit of Shmiras Halashon, and overapply it, IMHO. the result is to create a delusional picture of the world.

kt,
josh

Anonymous said...

Fine, But - as this is a public forum I would guess that one should be even more careful about what is written since such a potentially wide audience is reached in cyberspace.
B'kitzur, if it were my blog, I would ask an expert in the laws of S.H.L. if what I was writing was permissible. Certainly cannot hurt, right?
Debbie

joshwaxman said...

i actually do think that such an attitude can "hurt".

Anonymous said...

I honestly don't understand why. Can you explain?

Debbie

joshwaxman said...

it is a bit more than i can explain al regel achat. it has to do with personal responsibility, creeping chumra-ism, the infantilization of Judaism, and not wanting to endorse the assumptions which underlie the idea. this would take a whole essay to explain.

to select just the first and explore it a bit, this is my blog, published in my name, not with a pseudonym, such that at the end of the day, the person to blame is me. with a named lashon hara advisor, i would have to worry about that other person's reputation. and it is another pressure point for the dedicated people who really really want to shut me up. with an unnamed one, that is still partial shirking of responsibility, to a shadow figure.

meanwhile, in terms of the driving concern prompting this "couldn't hurt", I don't think that Lashon-Hara concerns are a good thing to stress to the community, across the board, in cases like this. (!) people went to the excess in that direction, with harmful results, in fairly recent history. sure, neighbors should not gossip about one another, for the joy or spitefulness of it. but people don't talk, just in case it is lashon hara, or because they did consult with someone who does not understand the implications, or who misapplies, over-applies (or even correctly applies!) the strict halacha. People should be FRANK, and not hide things in these sort of matters. And people should not live in a fantasy world created by deliberate fictions and half-truths, which is what you get on more than one occasion in the frum community.

I am NOT saying that this is lashon hara / motzi shem ra, and that I don't care.

joshwaxman said...

to give a sense of creeping chumra-ism, this is not the only time when people who don't know suggest, "well, certainly it couldn't hurt" to adopt chumra X. this attitude of "surely it couldn't hurt" itself is hurtful.

Anonymous said...

Shmirat HaLashon is so complex and the stakes are so high that one must *always* be extremely careful. If one errs by not speaking at all - out of fear - that will be nowhere NEAR the punishment of speaking (or writing)what is halachically not permissible. I believe "it can't hurt" in this case is not the same as saying - hey try this chumra. Any attempt at avoiding speaking or writing lashon hara is always rewarded in Shamayim - and to a very major extent.
Anyway - I would like to see what other people think about this issue. Anyone out there?
Debbie

joshwaxman said...

I will appeal to a reductio ad absurdum.

lo saamod al dam rei'echa is also an aveira. Do you **really** think that being silent as a child molester works his way through a Jewish community, because of a misplaced emphasis on lashon hara is better than erring by telling? Some people did think so. They were wrong. Do you think these people, in their avoidance of "speaking or writing lashon hara", are rewarded in Shamayim? To a very major extent?

The same way you fetishize lashon hara, despite not knowing it too deeply, others fetishize other commandments, and would declare this one or that one to be the exception. Tznius is a popular one. Tznius is so important, and the possible negative ramifications are so serious, that it certainly "couldn't hurt" to ban all sheitels.

Anonymous said...

First of all, I don't "fetishize" lashon hara. And the fact that you would even USE that term leads me to believe that there is some anger surrounding this entire issue. So, to be perfectly honest, don't direct it at me, direct it at the Master of the Universe who wrote the rule book.
If you'd like to debate, keep it free of ad hominem attacks.
OK?
-Debbie

Devorah said...

Josh:
There are two ways to argue with a woman - neither one works.
:)

yaak said...

R' Josh,

Certainly, it doesn't hurt to learn the sefarim Hafeitz Hayim and Shemirat Halashon.

How about you and I have an online havruta? Hey, we can even apply it to things we find online - and ask ourselves whether it's Lashon Hara or not (both as it is and also if it weren't considered in front of 3 people). I can certainly use the hazara, especially now that Elul is coming up.

I'm totally serious about this.

joshwaxman said...

"First of all, I don't "fetishize" lashon hara."

So you say.

And the fact that you would even USE that term leads me to believe that there is some anger surrounding this entire issue.
Why? People take individual mitzvos and grant them undue stature. For instance, women have fetishized the saying of "Amen" and formed Amen groups and parties.

direct it at the Master of the Universe who wrote the rule book.
which rule book? do you mean the sefer of the Chafetz Chaim? are you certain that you know the rules?

are you aware of what the Rambam writes about certain things Chazal said were 'ain lo chelek leOlam Haba'? in hilchot teshuva, perek 3:
http://www.mechon-mamre.org/i/1503n.htm

וְיֵשׁ עֲבֵרוֹת קַלּוֹת מֵאֵלּוּ, וְאַף עַל פִּי כֵן אָמְרוּ חֲכָמִים שֶׁהָרָגִיל בָּהֶן אֵין לוֹ חֵלֶק לָעוֹלָם הַבָּא, כְּדֵי לְהִתְרַחַק מֵהֶן וּלְהִזָּהֵר מֵהֶן.

now think in what cultural context the Chafetz Chaim wrote his sefer.

yaak:
maybe; though it would have to go rather slowly, similar to the way they learn in Chafetz Chaim.

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