Post: A bold comment by Ibn Ezra in parashas Matos, but easy to miss. In perek 31:
| ו וַיִּשְׁלַח אֹתָם מֹשֶׁה אֶלֶף לַמַּטֶּה, לַצָּבָא: אֹתָם וְאֶת-פִּינְחָס בֶּן-אֶלְעָזָר הַכֹּהֵן, לַצָּבָא, וּכְלֵי הַקֹּדֶשׁ וַחֲצֹצְרוֹת הַתְּרוּעָה, בְּיָדוֹ. | 6 And Moses sent them, a thousand of every tribe, to the war, them and Phinehas the son of Eleazar the priest, to the war, with the holy vessels and the trumpets for the alarm in his hand. |
Klei hakodesh implies plural. And perhaps one can readily explain it as going into battle arrayed in certain bigdei kehuna, in his role as mashuach milchama. But I can also see it as referring to the aron, which we know went out to battle with the Israelites in sefer Shmuel.
Midrash Rabba (as well as Tanchuma) puts it as a machlokes, whether it is the aron or the urim veTumim.
וכלי הקדשAnd Rashi puts it as follows:
זה הארון, שנאמר: כי עבודת הקדש וגו'.
רבי יוחנן אמר:
אלו בגדי כהונה שהם אורים ותומים, כמו שנאמר: ובגדי הקדש אשר לאהרן.
| the sacred utensils: The holy Ark (Sifrei Mattoth 34, Num. Rabbah 22:4) and the golden showplate (Mid. Aggadah), since Balaam was with them and through sorcery was able to make the Midianite kings fly, and he flew along with them, he [Phinehas] showed them the showplate on which God’s Name was engraved, and they fell down [to earth]. For this reason it says, concerning the Midianite kings, “upon their slain” (verse 8), for they fell from the air on top of those slain. Likewise, it says in the book of Joshua (13:22) in connection with Balaam,“upon (sic) their slain.” - [Mid. Tanchuma Mattoth 4] | וכלי הקדש: זה הארון והציץ. שהיה בלעם עמהם ומפריח מלכי מדין בכשפים, והוא עצמו פורח עמהם. הראה להם את הציץ, שהשם חקוק בו, והם נופלים, לכך נאמר על חלליהם במלכי מדין, שנופלים על החללים מן האויר, וכן בבלעם כתיב (יהושע יג, כב) אל חלליהם: |
Rashi does not put it as the Urim VeTumim, but as the tzitz and the aron. Rashi appears to be combining sources here. The Ark from Sifrei and Bereishit Rabba; and the tzitz from midrash aggada. Though Tanchuma also mentions the tzitz, which had this effect, in which case it is encompassed among the bigdei kehuna, which had included the Urim veTumim.
On this, Ibn Ezra writes:
[לא, ו]
וכלי הקדש -הארון.
Thus, he identifies it as the aron. This might not be so shocking, because there is a good peshat reason to think it is the aron, as above. But he is almost certainly saying this having seen Rashi. If so, his choice of aron only may well be a rejection of the midrash about Pinchas flying and showing them the tzitz, at least on the level of peshat. This is to be expected, but it just goes to show how one should read meforshim in context, context being what other sources and meforshim are saying.
7 comments:
meir says
In the past you have accepted that means replies to posts from me containing new topical subjects and i thank you for them.
Here is another which ought to be of interest to everyone.i have not heard or found anyone discussing it. but since it concerns everyone it ought to be.
I believe all kesubos today are possul except the sefardi ones.
we have a common nusach for everyone made most likely 1000 years ago or thereabouts.
No one knows, cares or understands whats the written there.
not the choson, kallo eidim and i am sorry to say the mesader who is supposed to be a rov.
they all have no idea what is written there. Yes they can translate the meaningless words and are good at 'reading' it.
i wont go fully into the subject now i first have to see if it is of interest. but i have yet to find a rov who knows whats the written there and when it comes to a get each beth din has a different set of figures usually different for a rich or poor man.
there is an amount quoted in the kesuba which no rov seems to know how much or from which money it originated it is not talmudic.
The chazon ish does quote a figure in silver which is brought down in some of todays seforim on marriage. but how many rabbonim have ever learnt chazon ish. Rav Padwa of london has a tshuva where he says he doesnt know signed by his whole beth din. It seems they never learnt chazon ish.but they are not alone. so how can one expect a normal guy who gets married to know.
the sefarding do the right thing they put the figure in dollars. they dont have a standard kesubah.
one of the reasons it is read out is so the choson shouldnt afterwards say he had no idea what was written there. well if the rov who reads it has no idea either what is the purpose. another reason it to make a hefsek between engagement and marriage.but that is no reason to read out something meaningless.
it is about time todays rabbis and even the great ones were trained to know exactly how much is involved. and not each beth din has a free for all.
there is a tshuva in r m feinstein chelek 4 where he says its too little. i dont understand that either there is an amount keep to it. if its too little make the kesuba a larger amount. there is nothing in the din that says it has to be that amount the sefardim also have varying amounts the gemoro is full of that.
but if that is the amount written why should he have to pay more.
there is an attitude that we always did it this way so it must be right.
this is a total fallacy. when this nusach kesuba originated with the amount in the local currency it was like dollars today and everyone knew what it was. they forgot the currency in the ages but still kept to the old kesuba.
i might add the currenty is deutch marks now find me a rov who knows that.
if this post is not for your blog please delete it
meir says
In the past you have accepted that means replies to posts from me containing new topical subjects and i thank you for them.
Here is another which ought to be of interest to everyone.i have not heard or found anyone discussing it. but since it concerns everyone it ought to be.
I believe all kesubos today are possul except the sefardi ones.
we have a common nusach for everyone made most likely 1000 years ago or thereabouts.
No one knows, cares or understands whats the written there.
not the choson, kallo eidim and i am sorry to say the mesader who is supposed to be a rov.
they all have no idea what is written there. Yes they can translate the meaningless words and are good at 'reading' it.
i wont go fully into the subject now i first have to see if it is of interest. but i have yet to find a rov who knows whats the written there and when it comes to a get each beth din has a different set of figures usually different for a rich or poor man.
there is an amount quoted in the kesuba which no rov seems to know how much or from which money it originated it is not talmudic.
The chazon ish does quote a figure in silver which is brought down in some of todays seforim on marriage. but how many rabbonim have ever learnt chazon ish. Rav Padwa of london has a tshuva where he says he doesnt know signed by his whole beth din. It seems they never learnt chazon ish.but they are not alone. so how can one expect a normal guy who gets married to know.
the sefarding do the right thing they put the figure in dollars. they dont have a standard kesubah.
one of the reasons it is read out is so the choson shouldnt afterwards say he had no idea what was written there. well if the rov who reads it has no idea either what is the purpose. another reason it to make a hefsek between engagement and marriage.but that is no reason to read out something meaningless.
it is about time todays rabbis and even the great ones were trained to know exactly how much is involved. and not each beth din has a free for all.
there is a tshuva in r m feinstein chelek 4 where he says its too little. i dont understand that either there is an amount keep to it. if its too little make the kesuba a larger amount. there is nothing in the din that says it has to be that amount the sefardim also have varying amounts the gemoro is full of that.
but if that is the amount written why should he have to pay more.
there is an attitude that we always did it this way so it must be right.
this is a total fallacy. when this nusach kesuba originated with the amount in the local currency it was like dollars today and everyone knew what it was. they forgot the currency in the ages but still kept to the old kesuba.
i might add the currenty is deutch marks now find me a rov who knows that.
if this post is not for your blog please delete it
from my perspective, not a concern at all.
first, in terms of nusach, it is entirely valid. though rav herschel schachter has endorsed a reworked version, corrected by dr. richard steiner, with more grammatically correct aramaic.
second, in terms of the amount, the whole thing is an institution deRabbanan. the amounts for tosefta etc. are not really a discouragement to divorce in non-Sefardic ketubot, and the purpose, based on Yevamot 89a, is "so that he shall not regard it easy to divorce her". that is true. yet, technically, it is such a ketuba document.
and in terms of accomplishing the goal of the ketuba, Ashkenazim don't have to worry. that is covered under one of the cherems of Rabbenu Gershom, that a man cannot divorce his wife against her will. so perhaps Sefardim, who didn't adopt the charamim, have much greater need for the ketuba to accomplish this task.
indeed, the real reason the ketuba is read under the chuppa is to make a hefsek between kiddushin and nisuin, which is why even a monkey or a parrot could read it, and it would be valid.
kt,
josh
meir says
thanks for your reply
the tshuva of rav padwa is where he needed heter 100 rabbonim where it seems the dinim of kesuba apply entirely but that is off the point.
as you say it may not be easy to divorce her.
but it also says without a kesuba one may not live with a wife.
just because he may have another reason for being difficult to divorce doesnt change the fact that kesuba was instituted
but that really is not my point
my point is that today nothing is done correctly
why not do it correctly
that means tell everyone what the shiur chazon ish before the wedding when it will be fully kosher
i sent a choson to ask his rov if its better if he knows the correct amount and he answered yes
so he asked him what is it
so he answered 5000 dollars
which is just a number from the top of his head.
this is quite usual for rabbonim today in all matter.
that was my point.
so i repeat all men today are living in sin.
it my sound horrendeous like all my posts but judaism today has long gone off the path
i have many other items
of similar nature.
as an aside which shechita house is closed in the nine days.
when it comes to money for rabbonm the shulchan oruch suddenly disappears.
and all kinds of excuses are made for not keeping it
except the one excuse that money is the root of all.
"as you say it may not be easy to divorce her.
but it also says without a kesuba one may not live with a wife."
does he have a technically valid ketuba? yes.
is it easy to divorce her? no.
you want to declare the technically valid ketuba pasul. i disagree that it is pasul. as would the vast majority of other rabbonim, i would imagine.
"why not do it correctly"
why bother?
"that means tell everyone what the shiur chazon ish before the wedding when it will be fully kosher"
it presently IS fully kosher. and who says we have to follow the shiur of the Chazon Ish?!
"so i repeat all men today are living in sin."
nonsense.
and at the *most*, they are living in "Rabbinic" sin, and doing so beshogeg, while the original purpose of kesuba has been satisfied and while the entire Rabbinic establishment declares it perfectly valid. this is a level of "living in sin" I would be happy to engage in.
and this concerns you?!
that they don't stop shechting does not bother me either. this *minhag* had reasons which are not necessarily so applicable nowadays. and besides, even not EATING meat is a minhag based on a faulty girsa, or understanding of a girsa, in Yerushalmi. (see here.)
kol tuv,
josh
meir says
the entire rabbinic establishment is wrong as usual.
they have no idea what a kesuba is by their own admission.
call themselves rabbonim!
if someone writes a shtar and has no idea what is written there it is called 'chaspa balma'
if the chasan signs himself it may be different i wont go into it but the holier than thou dont.
when i say chazon ish shiur i didnt mean it to the exclusion of all others at least to have some shiur but not know absolutely nothing.
i am addressing my comment to the orthodox establishment who claim to keep the torah. but who are far from it in this and many other things hardly a single mitsva is kept properly. i have a long list similar to this.
no wonder moshiach if you believe in him doesnt turn up. nothing at all is kept.
they say that the soton work is easier today.
he goes to the chazan and makes sure he cant daven
he goes to the rov and makes sure he cant pasken
he goes to the sofer makes sure he cant write
he goes to the shochet and makes sure he cant shecht.
he then leaves us all alone. all his work is already done.
no mitsva is then kept.
for the record since you replied and maybe others are interested here is the correct amount
200 deutch marks called 'zekukin'.
in germany each town had their own 'mint'. so the weight of each mark was between 200-300 grams of silver depending on the city.
that is the chazon ish shiur and i cant see how anyone like r chaim noe can argue.
and i repeat what harm can it do to know this. what you pay in the end is a separate story.
every person living in Germany at the time it was instituted 1000 years ago would have known what it was like dollars today.
ok thanks for the reply.
maybe i will write one day about kosher chickens from the so called best shechita which is of course all treifa and how they cut corners compared to the empire which is much more kosher.
no that wasnt an understatement i meant it literally.
they dont have a blog where they give answers so they can do what they like with impunity
just because they have longer beards or should i say peyot.
there is a lot more than worms in fish to worry about.
i am deliberately not going to respond to halachic arguments, because all it will lead to is pointless back and forth.
but i can guarantee you, moshiach is not delayed just because everyone doesn't agree with you.
and this brings me to your statement of:
"why not do it correctly"
to do it quote unquote correctly is being motzi laaz on klal yisrael. just as when chassidim reformed the sharpness of the shechita knife. much like saying that everyone is living in sin, the rabbonim are all ignorami, etc.
the rabbonim do know how to learn, and i don't say this because they have long peyos.
kol tuv,
josh
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