Daf Yomi Shabbat 21b: Are these (Chanukka) lights indeed sanctified?

One version of HaNerot Hallalu we sing on Chanukka:


Image taken from this website.

HANEROT HALALU ANACHNU MADLIKIM AL HANISSIM VE'AL HANIFLAOT VE'AL HATSHUOT VE'AL HAMILCHAMOT SHEASSITA LAAVOTEINU BAYAMIM HAHEM BAZMAN HAZÉ, AL YEDEI KOHANECHA HAKDOSHIM. VECHOL SHEMONAT YEMEI CHANUKÁ HANEROT HALALU KODESH HEM, VE`EIN LANU RESHUT LEHISHTAMESH BAHEM, ELA LIR`OTAM BILVAD, KEDEI LEHODOT ULEHALEL LESHIMCHÁ HAGADOL AL NISSEICHA, VE'AL NIFLEOTECHA VE'AL YESHUATECHA.

I will say up front that my own tradition of the song omits the section I bolded above, and replaces it with the single word elu, "these," then matching closely the text in al haNissim.

Is it really true that these Chanukka lights are kodesh, sanctified? And is it true that we do not have permission to make use of them, except for the purpose of seeing them? I would claim that both statements are not absolutely true.

The basis for the bolded segment above seems to be Rav's statements in Shabbat, followed by Shmuel exclamation regarding Rav's statement. Rav (or possibly Rav Matna) says on Shabbat 21b that for all the oils and wicks disallowed for Shabbat, one may use them for Chanukka lights, whether during Shabbat or a weekday. Rabbi Yirmiya offers an explanation, which Abaye eventually accepts, that this is because one is forbidden to use the Chanukka lamps for any use, and so we are not fearful that he will come to tilt the lamp, which was the reason for forbidden most of those materials for Shabbat lamps. The Rishonim take this as referring to all uses. Thus, "we do not have permission to make use of them, except to look at them."

Furthermore, on Shabbat 22a, Rav Yehuda cites Rav Assi (who, according to some girsaot, cited Rav}, that it is forbidden to count money opposite a Chanukka lamp. Whether Rav Assi was citing Rav, or would agree with Rav (who seems to say a much more extreme statement about all uses), and whether Rav would agree with Rav Assi (for perhaps he would permit a minor usage such as counting money) - all this is not pertinent. The point is that a specific type of usage of the Chanukka lamp is disallowed by Rav Assi (and perhaps Rav). Rav Yehuda reports this to Shmuel, who says incredulously: וכי נר קדושה יש בה? Does the lamp have holiness?

Since we in fact rule in accordance with Rav Yehuda's citation of Rav Assi, we must disagree with Shmuel, and say that the lamp does have some intrinsic holiness. Thus, "these lights are holy."

And so, we have both parts of the statement.

The problem:
On the surface, there are problems with both of these deductions. Let us examine the last one first. Shmuel asks this question incredulously. Rav Yosef answers that it is an issue of bizui mitzvah. By cointing coins opposite the lamp, we denigrate it. Rav Yosef gives other examples of this. Thus, what Rav Yosef is effectively answering is that Shmuel is correct. These lights do not have instrinsic holiness that would cause someone not to use them. It is because of another reason, that of denigration of the mitzvah, that this specific act of cointing coins is forbidden. Thus, Shmuel is wrong because there is a different reason for forbidding, and not because the lights have some instrinsic holiness. Thus, the statement that "these lights are kodesh" would seem to be not absolutely accurate.

Turning to the first deduction, that we may not make any use of these lights except to look at them, this is also demonstrably untrue. Again in Shabbat 22a, Rav says that we may not make use of one lamp to light the next. Two reasons are given - drawing away part of the mitzvah (via dimming it or drawing away oil) and denigration of the mitzvah. It is possible to say, like the Rishonim, that this means by use of a wood chip in between (denigration), or directly (drawing away from the mitzvah). Regardless, Shmuel argues on Rav, and Abaye says that Master (=Rabba the son of Nachmani) always practiced like Rav over Shmuel, with the exception of three cases, and this was one of the three. The Rif cites this lehalacha. Thus, in some form, we may make use of the Chanukka lamps in order to light another Chanukka lamp. Thus, the statement "we do not have permission to make use of them, except to look at them" would also seem to be not absolutely accurate.

I would have no problem with this, since I do not actually sing these words.

The above was assuming the standard understanding of the gemara. In fact, I have a bunch of chidushim on this gemara, but I will save them for a followup post.