Sunday, February 14, 2010

Why not to submit Dor Yeshorim numbers before the first date

At Matzav, an argument to do genetic testing (by comparing the Dor Yesharim numbers) before the first date. There is merit to the position, but I don't agree that
It’s time we stop playing these ridiculous games. You’re in shidduchim? You’re going out? Submit your numbers to Dor Yeshorim before meeting even once. I have yet to hear a cogent argument to the contrary.
Life is complicated. The whole reason Dor Yesharim operates confidentially, and won't even tell people themselves that they are carriers (unless they match up with each other) is because of stupid stigma in certain ignorant, closed-minded frum Jewish communities. If a chassan or kallah knows he or she is a carrier, they might be obligated to tell the other party, even as a non-carrier, and this could mess up the shidduch. And if you compare Dor Yesharim numbers for every potential shidduch, before even beginning dating, then the likelihood increases that you will find out that you are a carrier. For at that point Dor Yesharim will say "no", and will inform both parties what they are carriers for. Then, the shadchan will know that the potential chassan and kallah are carriers for some genetic disease, and perhaps even the particular disease. Then, the shadchan may be less likely to set the person up, or may casually tell someone else, messing up the chassan and kallah's shidduch chances. Furthermore, the family of the chassan and kallah may then know just what the other person has. And the person himself will know he is a carrier, with the possible obligation to inform others of this status. And all this would not be the end of the world if people were not idiots. But they are, or else Dor Yesharim would not need to act so secretively.

Also, Dor Yesharim have expanded their tests to include things for which would not necessarily be disastrous, where the symptoms wouldn't be so terrible and the chance of having it would be fairly low, despite being carriers. The boy and girl could possibly really like each other, and choose to go through with the shidduch now that they know each other. But if they never knew each other, it is quite likely that the match would be killed off at this early level.

How is that for a cogent argument? Life is never as simplistic as at first may seem.

On the other hand, I know firsthand of couples who tested late in the game, and this caused anguish -- not because of any negative outcome, but because of the somewhat implies message that would some problem surface, the chassan, or the kallah, would break off the marriage. Was there really love, if the match could be broken because of this? (Of course, they could still go through with the marriage, but know what potential disaster awaited, and take steps to prevent it. Even so, it causes emotional strains.)

12 comments:

Anonymous said...

Josh-it's obvious you've thought this all out, but unfortunately all the logic in the world is no replacement for actual knowledge. Have you called Dor Yesharim and asked them -- according to them -- why they operate confidentially? I have and they are concerned about the stigma (stupid or not it exists), but also of the very real danger of creating two klals, one group of carriers and the other group not. This concern was generated, not by Dor Yesharim on their own, but with gedolim who have worked with Dor Yesharim from the beginning to set down its rules and proceedures.

With regard to what they test for, that is also regulated by the gedolim. In speaking with Dor Yesharim and trying to understand their program, it is clear to me that they don't just add diseases because they feel like it. The guidelines they use, again, have been set down by the gedolim on what they can and can't test for. The whole program is done Daas Torah.

In speaking to Rabbi Ekstein himself, who lost four children to Tay-Sachs disease, r"l, before starting the program, I came to understand that while some would think that he finds some contentment in every shidduch they inform as incompatible (saving a potential couple from tragedy), Rabbi Ekstein is only pained by having to inform the them. He would not inform someone hoping to prevent a shidduch unless he were certain that the shidduch would result in tragedy.

As to the notion that the shadchan will know of the couple's incompatibility, this should not happen, as the shadchan is not one of the informed parties. Only the potential couple will know and both can and should keep it to themselves that they were incompatible. If they asked before the first date, they don't have a heartbreak situation and will not be told what they are carriers for. They can tell the shadchan that they decided for their own reasons not to go on the date. The shadchan will look for the next opportunity.

Your arguments seem cogent, but, again lack specific knowledge. My concern is that making these arguments, that sound compelling, without proper knowledge, may turn some away from a program that would save them from untold tragedy. When throwing out an opinion on a subject that has the potential to so deeply affect lives, I would hope that we would go and get the knowledge first.

My recommendation - use the Dor Yesharim program and check for compatibility before the first date.

Thanks, Dor Yesharim, for being there for the Klal!

joshwaxman said...

"Josh-it's obvious you've thought this all out, but unfortunately all the logic in the world is no replacement for actual knowledge."

true, but nothing you have written contradicted what i intuited!

" I have and they are concerned about the stigma (stupid or not it exists)"
indeed. it exists, in particular frummie communities, who are ignorant and idiots when it comes to this. this wasn't a criticism of Dor Yesharim. it was a criticism of the notion that to test beforehand any date (despite "Daas Torah" to the contrary) is silly and indefensible, and a criticism of the stupidity of certain parts of society that make this required. the key is education, and possibly Daas Torah to tell people not to be idiots. except they wouldn't accept Daas Torah in such a situation.

"but also of the very real danger of creating two klals, one group of carriers and the other group not."
and again, only for a certain silly community, who would do this, and who attach stigma. and this is not a criticism of Dor Yesharim, but of the attitudes of the community. and a realization that given this attitude, the "Daas Torah" that some people received to test only once it is shayach may make good sense.

"With regard to what they test for, that is also regulated by the gedolim"
Some gedolim. I am sure they get rabbinic approval for the particular diseases. But some, including Rabbi Tendler, have criticized the expansion to certain other diseases, as well as the nondisclosure. See Mother In Israel's post. Is Rabbi Tendler suddenly not Daas Torah?

"In speaking to Rabbi Ekstein himself..."
has nothing to do with what i wrote, as far as I can see.

"As to the notion that the shadchan will know of the couple's incompatibility, this should not happen, as the shadchan is not one of the informed parties."
read my post again. i am explaining why, when using Dor Yesharim, one should not necessarily test before the first date. If so, the shadchan arranges the date, and everything is going well, and then it falls apart. You think the shadchan will not discover this eventually, especially if it happens with the same people over and over, who happen to be carriers? This is why the daas Torah that some have received is not to test before the first date.

"Your arguments seem cogent, but, again lack specific knowledge."
what specific knowledge?

"My concern is that making these arguments, that sound compelling, without proper knowledge, may turn some away from a program that would save them from untold tragedy."
my argument here was not to not use Dor Yesharim. (i have other reasons for opposing it, of which you lack specific knowledge, and which for various reasons I will never post online for the world to see.) my argument, at least in this particular post, was that the Matzav editor -- in his rant against certain people who delayed testing via Dor Yesharim until later, based on their own Daas Torah -- was passing judgement on those people too quickly.

"My concern is that making these arguments, that sound compelling"
I'll be clear, then. I am certainly in favor of genetic testing. I waited until genetic testing was done before proposing. I did it via regular blood tests; getting your full genome is another route to take; but Dor Yesharim is a good way of getting this done, as it is often cheaper (it was not for me), especially if the alternative is nothing.

"Thanks, Dor Yesharim, for being there for the Klal!"
I second that notion. Thanks, Dor Yesharim.

I hope I have clarified matters. Please reread my post, and see what I said and what I did not say.

kol tuv,
josh

joshwaxman said...

I reread my post, and I see how it could be misread as an attack on Dor Yesharim. That was not my intent. My advice: first read the Matzav post; then, assume I support Dor Yesharim, and read my post as an attack on the Matzav post only.

I hope I made this clearer...

kt,
josh

Yosef Greenberg said...

"How is that for a cogent argument?"

Weak.

The only reason you (seem to) write is the increased potential of finding out, with the baggage that comes along with it.

This might not be a good enough reason not to test.

"Is Rabbi Tendler suddenly not Daas Torah?"

No. If you don't believe in it, and I assume he doesn't, how can he be? :)

joshwaxman said...

"This might not be a good enough reason not to test."
but i am not arguing not to test! i am arguing that those (giving Daas Torah -- see the Matzav post, that rabbis recommend this) who say to test, but to test later (e.g. after a few dates), would likely use this as an explanation. we want to accomplish the goals of Dor Yesharim, and this is the best way to do this.

and indeed, from what I've seen, this is precisely what people do -- test via Dor Yesharim once it gets serious.

"If you don't believe in it, and I assume he doesn't, how can he be? :)"
i was tweaking Anonymous' nose. but seriously, there is strong Daas Torah which people really believe (be lemmings and ask about what color tie to wear, to infallible individuals) and the weak definition of Daas Torah which people offering apologetics often give, which seems quite reasonable. I don't know whether Rabbi Tendler believes in Daas Torah. But the weaker definition, that he is an individual steeped in Torah sources and, additionally, mada sources, and so he is the person we should consult for matters pertaining to this, rather than relying on our own likely deficient knowledge. If so, Rabbi Tendler can surely fit the bill.

kol tuv,
josh

joshwaxman said...

to make this clearer, read this comment at Matzav:

"Really, next time your at a wedding, ask a choshuv rosh yeshiva what he thinks, and virtually across the board they will tell you they should do it after a couple of dates."

thus, not Rabbi Tendler, but various choshuv roshei yeshiva across the board say to do it after a few dates. the purpose of this post was to explain the reasoning behind this "Daas Torah". and not, chas veshalom, to tell people to not engage in genetic testing.

hope this helps,
josh

Chris L. said...

I think you're in the minority in regards to asking *such* questions from a Rabbi. But true, using the definition you wrote in the past, it fits. (You're consistent.)

"Really, next time your at a wedding, ask a choshuv rosh yeshiva what he thinks, and virtually across the board they will tell you they should do it after a couple of dates."

You're giving too much credence to anonymous commentators. I could go there right now and write something of the opposite effect, with no one the wiser, especially when unnamed. (The Roshei Yeshiva, that is.)

Although I find it funny that this is a Da'as Torah issue at all.

joshwaxman said...

"*such* questions from a Rabbi"
I'm not certain I understand. What is "such" questions? Ties? Or important questions?

"You're giving too much credence to anonymous commentators."
perhaps. but it also accords with the way I've seen it typically done. the matzav suggestion strikes me as the chiddush.

but since Anonymous presented this as Daas Torah (which appears to be a mechanism by which one disengages one's brain), I pointed out claims in the other direction. that was the only reason Daas Torah came up in the first place.

really, it is just the phenomenon that someone comes up with a brilliant idea, and thinks everyone is a moron for disagreeing with him. i am not even disagreeing with the author at Matzav! his points have merit, as i noted. however, there are cogent counterarguments. which is why this is a nuanced issue, rather than something which is black and white.

kt,
josh

joshwaxman said...

also, the point is not Daas Torah or not. rather, this is a way of pointing out that I am not arguing against Dor Yesharim. I am arguing against a particular suggestion about just how to utilize Dor Yesharim. That comment may cause people to reread my post more carefully, and realize that.

kt,
josh

Yosef Greenberg said...

`The comment above (from Chris L.) is mine (Yosef Greenberg's). For some reason, my Google account still has a (very) old pseudonym, which inadverdantly popped in.

"I'm not certain I understand. What is "such" questions? Ties? Or important questions?"

Such, meaning when to take the DY test. Common sense, whether by following your reasoning or the Matzav commentator's one.

The average non-Da'as Torah believing (in the conventional, Chareidi way,) blogger limits his question to Halachah related questions. Not that I took a poll.

But I could see how you could twist this into a halachah question.

You know, you're the Rabbi, so more power to you. ;)

"Daas Torah (which appears to be a mechanism by which one disengages one's brain)"

Not always. But always a useful tool.

"and thinks everyone is a moron for disagreeing with him."

Not at all. All he's saying is that he still didn't here a good contrary argument! Thank G-d you came along. That "moron" thinking is you're own superimposition, for the lack of a better word.

"however, there are cogent counterarguments."

Agreed. There always are; although he might not consider yours to be "cogent".

joshwaxman said...

"Not at all"
perhaps i am overstating it for emphasis, but this is the general sense i get from his "rants", in general. present a one-sided position, not realizing the nuances.

"although he might not consider yours to be "cogent""
it is quite possible he wouldn't. though he might. i don't know if this is a good judge of the validity of a point, though... ;)

kt,
josh

Mississippi Fred MacDowell said...

>Was there really love, if the match could be broken because of this?

Obviously Dor Yesharim doesn't only serve, nor does it only intend to serve only, a Chassidishe and Yeshivishe crowd, but certainly in the former but also in the latter there is not only no expectation of love before marriage, let alone the engagement, but it is widely believed that love is impossible. Great fondness, for sure, but if a young couple is feeling something similar to love, at best it's a siman that they've been going out far too long.

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