Tuesday, August 16, 2011

Did Rav Chaim Kanievsky warn that Baba Elazar was a con-artist?

What makes for good evidence, and what makes for flimsy evidence? In my previous post, someone told me that all the charges against Baba Elazar were based on 'flimsy evidence', while the exculpatory evidence, namely the hespedim by various Gedolim and that he was widely regarded as a tzaddik, presumably constituted much weightier evidence.

I don't see it that way, but this may be due to a different in epistemology. Just what constitutes valid evidence? To cite Rationalist Judaism on this, though regarding a different topic:
Epistemology refers to the concept of how knowledge is acquired. There are fundamental differences in how people reach their opinions about things, and this comes into sharp contrast with the topics of my books. How do we decide if Chazal erred in science? Do we evaluate their statements in light of science? Do we evaluate science in light of their statements? Do we look at what the Rishonim say? Do we follow what the Gedolim say? And if so, which Gedolim?
For some people, the fact that Gadol X said something is proof that it is so. To pull an example from a previous post, the Chida repeated a story he had seen in an old copy of a certain sefer, as to the origin of that sefer. There were good reasons to doubt the story, for reasons of plausibility and because a parallel story / fairy tale existed in approximately the same place, but for Christians rather than Jews. For a rationalist, this was good reason to doubt the story. For a non-rationalist, this was not a good reason to doubt the story at all. Rather, if the Chida said it, it was good enough for him, and to doubt it betrays a serious lack in Emunas Chachamim.

Similarly, for Nir Ben Artzi. I talked myself blue in the face evaluating what his credentials were, what he said, how it was easy to manufacture fulfillment of his vague predictions, and so on. This was all to no avail. Then, suddenly, I produced an article in which many, many rabbonim said that he was a con-artist and that one should stay away, and that sufficed. All the proof that was ever needed had now been provided.

I could give other examples of this. It really is a difference in epistemology.

For me, there is weighty evidence. Few people, especially self-professed miracle workers, accumulate $80 million in assets honestly. And Menachem Ellowitz had financial documents backing him up, that he had given to $100,000 to Baba Elazar Abuchatzeira. And the Brooklyn DA found enough credible evidence to open an investigation, and dozens of religious Jews came forward with their own stories of how Baba Elazar had taken their money under sleazy circumstances, and told this to the DA. And one can track this sort of interaction financially, to confirm that these people gave the sums they gave. And this investigation was enough to make Baba Elazar avoid coming to the US this year. (And the story from DovBear's friend does seem to confirm it.) In the other direction, in Israel, Baba Elazar's defense seems to have been mere bluster: that he was not going to sue the secular papers for slander, not because their charges were flimsy, but because he was such a nice guy. And he forgives them for being so mean to him.

This does not mean that if I was on a jury, I would necessarily convict. Of course, I would have to actually hear the evidence and weigh it. But there does seem a good probability that with all of this smoke, there was indeed fire.

The counter-evidence, to me, sounded rather flimsy. Some Gedolim, who might not have known of the charges, or who might have heard of them but dismissed them because they were from the anti-chareidi paper HaAretz, said nice things about Baba Elazar at the latter's funeral. When meanwhile, other Gedolim said nice things about the innocence of Rabbi Elior Chen.

But matters are flipped for those with a different epistemology. Probably the only thing that could possibly convince them was condemnations by Gedolim. Then, they could turn to the other evidence as confirmatory.

So what did Rav Chaim Kanievsky say, precisely? Did he warn people that Baba Elazar was a con-artist and that people should stay away?

Well, first consider the letter that he wrote to Rabbi Pinchas Abuchatzeira, the murder victim's son. Via Matzav:

Maran Rav Chaim Kanievsky has authored a brief letter to Rav Pinchos Abuchatzeirah and the Abuchatzeirah family following the shocking murder of their father, Rav Elazar Abuchatzeirah zt”lof Beer Sheva, Thursday night.
“Rav Pinchos shlita,” Rav Chaim wrote, “it is with great sadness that we heard about what happened. This is a painful gezeirah and it should be for a kapparah. May Hashem comfort you among the mourners of Tzion and Yerushalayim.”

This is a pretty powerful letter which seems to support Baba Elazar's innocence. On the other hand, there are ambiguities. A gezeira could be well-deserved for the individual, or it could be a gzerat hamelech that we cannot understand. It could be a kapparah for all of klal Yisrael, or it could be a kapparah for the many sins of a con-artist. Of course, why should we suspect the latter?

Well, because of the story being told that Rav Chaim Kanievsky knew that Baba Elazar was a con-artist. Unfortunately, the idiot commenters over at Vos Iz Neias always comment anonymously, which greatly detracts from their credibility. But a comment thread there reads:

Comment 92:
 may g_d listen to the pain he causes and all the suffering he gives and all victims who fell in with elazar abuhetzeira from beer sheva come out and tell you story victims dont be shy ...... you will save another victim ..... from falling in ..... ..rabbi chaim konevsky ........gave out a warning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...........dont go to him or meet him in any way
Comment 93:
really ? rav chaim kanievsky said specifically not to meet rav elazar abuchatzeira. when did he say this?
Comment 94:

A sick man came to abuhetzeira and told him he sick abuhetzeira took fro the young 15000 dollars and the man gave it to him after man left he saw he was ripped off he ran to rabbi chaim konevsky and told him the story he told him stop the check right away and gave strict warning. Not to go to abuhezeira or loo k at him after this story he said I give a warning don't dare go to this faker . Beaware.
Perhaps someone who knows Rav Kanievsky can help confirm this.

In another article at Vos Iz Neias, an anonymous commenter writes about Baba Elazar:
he got over 7 hazmunas from bet din never came to bet din he got many warning over 100 warning s from even his brother hurav david abuhetzeira gave the warning even rabbi chaim konevsky gave a strong warnings and many rabunim from isreal warned him to do tshuva he ignored all warning may god take justice to this criminal oh god there are so many victims
Maybe someone can confirm this, or disprove it? I don't have the ability myself to do this. I don't think Baba Elazar was a con-artist because of these Anonymous comments. I gave my reasons above. But these are more along the lines of what people with a different epistemology might find persuasive; though less likely given the anonymous nature of these claims.

Next up, what is the Toeles? Yaak and Mekubal want to know.

27 comments:

joshwaxman said...

Absolutely anonymous comments are not welcome.

as i write in the comment form:
"If you choose to comment anonymously, please choose a pseudonym."

Anonymous said...

Thank you for searching for some kind of answer to this. If there's anything I learned over the years it's-don't trust anyone who asks you for money and is a self-proclaimed mekubal. The autistics have proclaimed him to be a tzadik as he was a person who guarded his eyes. It could be possible his treasurers(not sure if right word) turned him into a money making machine without his direct knowledge. Anyway, since the autistics have not asked for a dime,they just give spiritual chizuk, I believe it is a message from a soul like a navi-warnings to care for eachother before material things. These are like true neviim.
SY

joshwaxman said...

Absolutely anonymous comments are not welcome.

as i write in the comment form:
"If you choose to comment anonymously, please choose a pseudonym."

joshwaxman said...

that wasn't directed to you, SY

Zalman Alpert said...

Achrei mos kedoshim emor.
In days of yore in East Europe there were also all sorts of Baale Mofes, some legit, some not so legit and others ...well.In the uS we have had our share of frauds too like rabbi Zaide S. who went to jail for tax fruad and others I will not mention.
Among Ashkenazi Holy men today many also are into money.
How does one evaluate a Baal Mofes , if Tore knowledge were the sole criterion many in the last 300 years many would be eliminated even though they were the real thing. If lack of materialism were the definition the same would be true , many Rebbes lived well, but were "gutte betters"
Todat you are best off going to Reb Chaim Kanievski or your tribal rebbe.
The late Lubavitcher Rebbe was also real a giant in Torah and a man who left less than $15,000 when he died.In our days that is not to be believed !
Its ironic after the Baba Sali died , there was need for a memale makom( what position were they filling? after rav Kaduri died , his son was proclaimed his memale makom and has not ben heard from since)). The chief candidate was his only living son Reb Baruch a former politician and some one who served jail time (in Israel many politiciians are there) and the Baba Eliezer.
With all the taaynes against Baba Baruch he has set up schools and not entangled himself in legal issues excpet for a turf fight with Rabbi "Rentingen". On the other hand the other candidate the deceased rav was regarded as a holy man and in the last 10 years only questionable stories have come from his "court".
I saw Baba Baruch in Israeli TV being interviewed by Amnon Levi(Baal hacharedim). Rabbi Baruch is a wise rabbi and very insightful and does not over play his role and is "toleh" his power on the shoulders of giants the Baba Sali.
In the meantime we can pray say Tillim and study and medidate on the nature of man and G-D. We also have zechus avoth, teshuvah tefilla and zedoka !

S. said...

>In the uS we have had our share of frauds too like rabbi Zaide S. who went to jail for tax fruad and others I will not mention.

Just curious, why are you suppressing his last name?

I have a family story about him.

joshwaxman said...

"I have a family story about him."

makes sense, given that his name is Rabbi Zeidei S..

:)

S. said...

God forbid, if you're thinking what I think you're thinking! See your email.

joshwaxman said...

to clarify, i was joking...

though i don't see anything in my email yet.

S. said...

Hm. I'll send it again.

joshwaxman said...

thanks.
i got it.

Zalman Alpert said...

S.
Althoug I am not sure there is any need for it (I will need be a greyese zaddik) the man"s name is "Rabbi" Zaide Schmellner who first was a Baal Mofes in Rumania and later in NYC.
Sounds like he either of Zidichover or Nadvorner yichus.

S. said...

Zalman, I know who he is. I was honestly just curious why you would not give his last name, which seemed like you did it for some purpose (so as not to shame his descendents, if he has any, for example).

See here for one New York Yid's reaction when he came in 1925

http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=27652&pgnum=150

Zalman Alpert said...

I decided originally not to name him(Schmellner) , because I don't know who may be closely related to him.And I have "friends" in the Charedi world.
I recently purchased his picture (I had one from the Yiddish press before).
There were others in Poland a Yid called the Lodzer Baal mofes, In Hungary there were several right before the War.
I have 2 questions : Where can one get a hooded cloak like the late rebbe wore ? Where did the blog get the wonderful picture that accompanied the original article. the whole story is very sad.

Zalman Alpert said...

I feel I ought to congratulate the baal hablog for some very nice postings. yasher koach ! and continue the fine work

joshwaxman said...

i got it from here.

and thanks.

Anonymous said...

why did asher kill elazar abuhetzeira ? dahan had problems with his wife... elazar ripped off dahan with 250.000 dollars to solve his problems ..than tells him to devorce his wife.. he distroyed his life by makeing him penniless and depressed like he stole money from evryone he was a crook died like a con-artist

joshwaxman said...

Anonymous:

Do you have evidence of this? Also, a name rather than going as Anonymous goes a long way towards credibility.

Anonymous said...

Elazar abuhetzeira was a con artist by all means. Ask the victims. From london to paris from bnei brak to Jerusalem and around the world all his money left. is stolen money. has blood on it must return it. to all victims. Victims. Victims. Victims

Anonymous said...

Elazar abuhetzeira will.not go heaven. Till he pays back all the money he stole. By making hold ups on all victims. who came to him you pay or you die. putting them against the wall. if they don't pay these big amounts they will be cursed. And said to them to all victims you talk you are dead. evil will fall on you and your family. Just imagine for 30 years he got away with this crime. Shame on him.

Anonymous said...

Elazar abuhetzeira lived in a palace it cost him only 26.000.000.00.dollars. A apt Geneva. switzerland. But now he lives in a beautiful home. He forgot that god is watching him. With conning all his victims.

joshwaxman said...

Anonymous:

Repeatedly spamming this forum with anonymous negative statements does not help your cause. In fact, it does it harm. Start with a real name. Tell a real, personal story that people can verify.

Anonymous said...

Rabbi pinchus abuhetzeira. goes to rabbi chaim konevsky for a a blessing rabbi chaim konevsky warns the son of elazar.abuhetzeira don't dare to do the same as your father did. don't follow his. foot steps. by conning and Robbing broken people who would come to you for a blessing. If you do. You will have bad luck.

Anonymous said...

All victims who fell in with elazar abuhetzeira will never forgive him. for his crimes. Conning us. and taking our money away with words. of are. I will curse you with death. or you pay cash. He will never be forgiven what he did. On this world.

Anonymous said...

Let the world know. Elazar abyhetzeira gave commission for sending victims. Who fell in his trap. All agents got commission. He wore a hood to scare you and with a curse or pay cash it worked. Till his last victim. He had a tunnel. Because. He didn't dare to walk the streets. He was gangster. With a hood. Not a. Baba. Shame on him and all his. People who worked with him.

Anonymous said...

elazar abuhetzeira. A crook with a hood. Till he met the last victim. Shame on him

Anonymous said...

All these people who came to his funeral was suppose to be his new victims what a shame

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