Friday, June 20, 2008

Another Take On Megirot

I {=Josh} do not entirely agree with all the following, but I thought I would do "Yehuda" a favor and give his comment prominence. Bli neder, and if I get the time, I may dissect this next week to explain what parts I agree and disagree with, and why. (Update: Here is my first reaction post.) At any rate, here is Yehuda's comment, posted in response to this old blogpost of mine, or perhaps initially to a post at another blog:
Great Loshon Horah. Great Motzei shem Rah!...Congratulations on spreading lies about people, their families, their children, all on the hearsey of others who hold grudges and have ulterier motives.
I am sorry to break up your motzei shem rah party. I have read Shmirot Haloshon about 14 times in detail, including in depth, and you are no different than any other group of Ballei loshon horah, or even worse, Motzei Shem Rah, which is considered by the Rambam to be equal to the severity of the 3 major sins of, avodah zorah, murder, and arios.
My Chardei wife has been involved in megeriot for 4 years. It has absolutely changed her life and mine. She couldn't take care of our household of 8. I was washing dishes. I was doing alot of the cooking and I almost couldn't take anymore the non stop arguments between me and my wife. It was gehinnom. when I saw my wife changing, little by little, each month it was amazing. She became a Yiddeshe mother. No more anger. Her strength came back, and she does EVERYTHING in the house. She is a real kiddush hashem and speaks very nicely to the children, and me her husband. ....what a cult.!!!
I saw her each day doing megirot. what did she do? she went through the shelves and drawers in the house "that she had made", and was able to find many many things that she didn't need. When you ask yourself a real question...why am i holding on to things I no longer use etc, you just may get to know yourself. The idea is to free ourselves from all of our negative thoughts, and limitations. And, each time she did this, she did it with a prayer. "Anah Hashem.....please help me with this middah or that middah." Everyday she was saying over and over again ..Ana Hasem, (what a cult). It doesn't surprise me that in our velt today, saying "anah Hashem is a cult".
Of course in the time of the Bal Shem Tov, the vilna goan and many others called him an epikores. In fact many Litveshe Rabbanim were very very against the Chassidic Admorim and put those in cherem who belonged to these "cults" as well.
So, when I saw one day an article in the hamodia-English, filled with Motzei Shem Rah, with the name of this Rav and that Rav, that a new cult has been discovered..called megirot, I was very very disappointed. Why? I knew that these Rabbanim did not know anything about megirot and certainly didn't go to a class, but they have their askanim who look around for problems and come back and report on things they see as problems. The rabbanim completely rely upon these askanim and that is it.
Now, I have been learning in known Yeshivot for many years, and am considered a respectful Chareidi family. I am sorry, but I have seen for years with "my own ears and eyes," (a prerequisite of shmirot Haloshon), and I know that saying "Anah Hashem", (something that I myself should be saying more often,) and clearing out drawers, is in NO WAY whatsoever a cult or avoda zorah. I was ver dis heartened to see how low in this long golus we have sunk, to use such big names of Rabbanim and to say in their names "CULT", avodah zorah", and if they allowed their names to be used this way, then I am even more dis heartened.
I myself have spoken to Sylvia for many many hours on the phone, and I never heard once a word of Kefirah, or avodah zorah etc. ANd I did keep my ears open to be sure. She is a Yirei Shemayim, and as is her derech, she will never respond to any criticism since she knows it is all from Hashem and for her to grow.
I went to Harav Moshe Halbershtam, zt"l, with my wife, and he himself said, "What, clearing out your drawers is avodah zorah"?? He did not forbid my wife to do it, we in fact we asked why they came out with their P'sak, (i.e the aidah Hacharadit) against it. The answer... "WE don't want our Chareidishe women mixing with the mizrachi type" This was the answer from Harav Shternbuch who I know personally.(So, if this is the reason, then say so,,, but to call it and everyone involved in it cult members and ovdei avoda zorah?)
It should be known that the Chasidishe admorim did not assur it, Belz, and one very well know Tdadik type admore (I will not mention his name on the internet) Has 2 of his daughters still doing it, (with a Chareidi counselor).
The one who wrote the artcile above (Erlich), I can promise you she is not very "Erlich" at all. She with out any permssion went into someone's private home, (not a public building) with the direct intention to defame someone. I promise that the house owner would not have agreed, (g'neives daas). She is a friend of another mizrachi women who had a grudge against sylvia for not allowing her to continue with the shiurim.they planned this set up, and there you have it, lies about sex, money etc.
I can tell you, that my wife has spent hundreds of hours on the phone with Sylvia over the years, and she was never charged one shekel!!!!! I myself have spoken to her on the phone, and she never asked for money. The one's who pay are the one's who are able to. She does not care about money. I am saying because I know first hand.
Just like when someone comes to a dyan for a judgment, can the dyan hear the diyyun if he has personal gripe against the person? this Erlich is no better.
I know of another chareidishe women from Meah Shearim, (I met her personally), and she begged Rav Halbershtam to allow her to continue with this "CULT", and he did. (can you imagine a rav in the aida allowing a frum women to continue going to cult meetings.?
Isn't it disheartning that all of us poor nebech, chareidim with yeshiva and bais yaakov backgrounds, all of that Torah education...we can't know what a cult is..avodah zora, etc.
And all of those lies about sex, taking things out of context to do the final asassination.
If I had lived 250 years ago, I would have chosen to be in cherem and follow the Baal Shem tovs cult, and of cours Rabbi Nachman's. I also would have followed the Ramchal's cult as well, (as they were all called in those days). Well, now I have a real wife, she cooks she cleans, she davens, she honors me and respects me, and she honors herself as well. This is another cult that I will stay in.
Let it be known, not ever shiur is for everyone, not every shul is for everyone, and not every neighborhood is for everyone....but the Emmes must be spoken!
I swear that all of the above I know personally, and not hearsay. All is true and factual.

7 comments:

Jeremy said...

Is another cult where they read the CC's shmirat haloshon over and over? Or did he do that on his own?

Ariella said...

"Well, now I have a real wife, she cooks she cleans. . ."
We have come a long way, baby -- not at all.
I am practically speechless on this, so let me refer the readers here to an essay that was included in many anthologies I used when teaching composition and rhetoric:

http://inst.santafe.cc.fl.us/~mwehr/HumanRel/14WifeW.html
And let me assure you that I do cook and do clean, though I am happy to say that my children contribute in the latter, which is good for them as well as for me. Does this man not know that the greatest rabbis were happy to contribute to what needed to be done to prepare the household for Shabbos.: " R. Abuha used to sit on an ivory stool and make fire in honor of the Sabbath. R. Anan used to don a black apron in order to show that this day (the eve of the Sabbath) was a day of preparation, and that work had to be performed for the Sabbath. R. Safra used to singe a cow's head himself for the Sabbath, and Rabha would salt fish himself. R. Huna would light candles himself. R. Papa would prepare the wicks for the lamps. R. Hisda would cut herbs himself. Rabba and R. Joseph would chop wood for Sabbath. R. Zera would light the kindling wood. R. Na'hman bar Itz'hak would shoulder all burdens to be carried in and out of the house himself on the eve of Sabbath, saying: "If R. Ami or R. Assi would come to visit me, would I not do the same for them?" Others say that R. Ami and Assi did this on the eve of every Sabbath, saying: "If it should happen that R. Johanan were to visit us, would we not do the same for him?"

They did not say "this is women's work, and a 'real wife' would get it all done herself." They saw that it is a privilege to do such work themselves in honor of Shabbos.

wondering. . . said...

frum people don't swear.
also, what was yehuda doing on the phone for hours with sylvia?
also, perhaps the real wife he has now is actually a Stepford Wife???

Yehuda said...

Ariella,

I know that it is difficult not to take things out of context. This is why I was compelled to write my post in the first place. I was hoping that it would not have been necessary for me to write a full book on my homelife etc, with all of the details, as this was not my point.
Firstly, if you read my post again, you will see that there is a big difference between the Holy Tanaim who did things in honor of Shabbos. My personal post did not refer to performing chores for the honor the Shabbos at all. I was referring to every day daily chores that my wife was unable to accomplish, and would have liked to have been able to perfom, (six days of the week). Also, the point of the gemorah you brought, was to show that the holy Tanaim did simple seemingly mundane chores, why?...in order to HONOR THE SABBATH. We do not infer from this that they did these chores the other 6 days of the week as well, and left theirlearning schedule.Just the opposite, we infer from this that the other 6 days of the week they did NOT do these chores. This was the point of the Gemarah, to show how holy the Sabbath was in their eyes,that they would turn such seemingly mundane actions into lofty malacha...because they were doing it for the Sabbath. Also, I personally do not believe in the hashkafa of the womens lib. movement.i.e.(women are inferior to men). I mean that I do not believe that from a Torah perspective the entire topic exists. So when you mentioned "womens work", I do not relate to this in the deragtory fashion as the L'havdil womens lib. movement did/does.
I believe as chazal teach that everything a women and man does, in order to serve Hashem is Kodesh K'doshim. Cooking for the family, dressing the children, and the most holy responsibility of educating our children is meant for the mother to do.
Don't you believe that we, a man and women each have our own responsiblities in running a family and that we compliment each other when we do them??
It could be you misunderstood when I wrote that "she does EVERYTHING"... what I meant is that she is 100% capable of doing everything. Everything that she herself wanted to do, she is now capable to do it ALL, without the limitations.
I do believe that what you wrote above, "We've come along way baby"...is something from the Bella Abzug movement, which is not Torah dik at all.

Yehuda said...

Dear Wondering:

you stated that: "frum people don't swear."
Are you referring to the swearing of using Shem Hashem? This I did not do.

You also asked: "what was yehuda doing on the phone for hours with sylvia?
With all of the controversy going on, and my wife being involved, I was responsible to know first hand. I spoke to here in depth on many topics, and I kept my ears wide open to hear if there was any epikorses or other hashkafah type problems.
Your last statement: "also, perhaps the real wife he has now is actually a Stepford Wife???"

I don't know what a "stepford wife is. Is something that frum people know about or relate to?

Ariella said...

Yehuda, a stepford Wife is the "perfect" wife. She does everything in the house, has no complaints about it, plus she looks fantastic. The only thing is -- she is not really human. The term comes from a novel that advanced the concept of a group of men replacing their wives with robots who are designed to replicate their voices and look like them -- only better. Robots never get angry, never complain, and will always keep their figure. Oh, and they have no interests of their own to get in the way being at the beck and call of the lord and master. So that is the nightm----er, dream vision that Wondering meant to conjure up. And I have to admit that your description brought the exact same image to my mind.

I understand that the Tenoyim were doing work in honor of the Shabbos, but I think that more can be inferred about their attitude and that they did not expect the wife's job is to take care of everything at all times. Why do you think it is without merit to do melacha to allow your wife a break after a day of tending both house and children? Is that any less of a chesed than greeting strangers in the desert as Avraham did? To do chesed, Avraham actually told no one less than Hashem himself to wait on him while he tended to the guests. And, yes, he told Sarah to knead dough, etc., but he personally tended to preparing the meat. And he believed he was serving idolaters! Are wives less worthy than idolaters?

And BTW, the chiyuv of chinuch habanim clearly falls on the father -- not the mother. As to this: "Everything that she herself wanted to do, she is now capable to do it ALL, without the limitations." really? You mean that all "wanted to do" is what you wanted her to do, and it seems that her "limitations" were very human feelings of being overwhelmed by the care of young children and a home single-handedly.

That is not to say that taking care of children is not something worthwhile. That is not what I find objectionable in your posting. What I find objectionable is your attitude about your wife and what she must do to be considered a "real wife." So what is a "real husband" in this view?

yehuda said...

ariella,

Firstly, thank you for explaining what a stepford wife is.

Secondly, I had simply attempted to explain about my wife, and NOT myself, nor my personal relationship with my wife, and somehow you continue to read into my post, and apply your own understanding or let's say your own personal frustrations about life,men and women, marriages etc., and then you somehow find a word in my post that sets off your alarm system.
Please take a look again and show me where I wrote that "now I have my perfected female servent (shifcha) to do all of the unworthy lowly female type chores in my home. yeh, finally I can rest and do what ever I want without taking part in the family, it's responsibilities etc."

Here is what I wote with your comment following: "Everything that SHE herself wanted to do, she is now capable to do it ALL, without the limitations." really? You mean that all "wanted to do" is what you wanted her to do...."

ariella, did you read the words above? Did I not TRY to qualify my words for you alone, that I wrote what "SHE" wanted to do, and then you come back and re-tyche the word, and you say that I meant everything that "I" wanted her to do.
I think that you have a chip somehwere on your shoulder.I write exactly what I write, and you tell me that I meant differently.

You know, it says in the gemarah, that when we look into the waters, we see OUR own reflection. The good and the bad. So when you look at your friend, fellow man/women, etc, what ever you see in them are things that you have in you. I see that you have no idea what I have been trying to write here. But you are for sure sharing some things on how YOU see life. Because no matter what I say, you will alway read into it, that which you have so deeply rooted in yourself.

ariella, I onced asked a Rosh hayeshiva, "what is true freedom, (cherus),it was Pesach time. He answered, "true freedom is to realize your potential in life." Did you know that there are people, men and women who would like to be more agressive in life to go and apply for the job that they would like to have, but they have fears that are holding them back. There are those who would like to teach, but are frightened of speaking in front of groups of people. There are people who would like to accomplish more in their day, but due to their feelings of inferiority or whatever, are unable to utilize all of the energy that they DO have inside of them. Yes, and believe it or not, there are those women who would really love to be able to be an akeres habais...
By the way,there has not been one word in any of my posts, where I said or claimed that I do not help in the house, or cook, or help with the children etc. That was not the purpose of this post. Please do not read your own personal thoughts into it, and add things that were not stated.
Lastly, when I was referring to Chinuch habonim, the education of the children BEGINS with the mother who is with the child for the first few years on an almost constant basis. She is the one talking to them, giving them the motherly love which is so important in their development, and many times the one to begin teaching them to make berachot on food etc. I was not referring to Torah chinuch,i.e mishnah, gemorah etc.. But since you bring it up, there is a machlokes, and the Chai Adam, and the Mishnah brurah both poskin that we go like the majority who hold that the mother is also obligated in chinuch Habonimi.e to teach the children to keep mitzvos.

All the best

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