tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post8356721043276520494..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Lighting candles for Jewish saintsjoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-68083987341143730932010-02-02T13:52:01.916-05:002010-02-02T13:52:01.916-05:00While not objecting to these minhagim at all, I wo...While not objecting to these minhagim at all, I would point out that they are not observed by all Sepharadim. Though certainly in the minority, some Sepharadim--those of the so-called western communities for example--such as the Portuguese exile community traditionally do not observe them. <br /><br />AkibaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-72933984895249199622010-02-02T12:03:55.336-05:002010-02-02T12:03:55.336-05:00yes, in almost all likelihood, as an accepted Jewi...yes, in almost all likelihood, as an accepted Jewish practice, and given the emotional blow. i am certainly not consistent. and i wouldn't really criticize those who do it, and it has assumed a fairly neutral or even positive Jewish meaning. still, i wouldn't surmise that it has always been a Jewish practice.<br /><br />i will similarly play dreidel, even for pennies, on chanukkah, even though it was initially a form of gambling on chanukkah condemned by contemporary rabbis, and even though i know the story of playing dreidel as a cover for learning Torah was a very late rationalization, and adaptation of another, similar Jewish story.<br /><br />my goal here (at least in this post) is not to attack the existing practice. but at the same time, in the interest of emes, i would challenge assertions that this has *always* been Jewish practice...<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-13814942236804759332010-02-02T11:49:23.899-05:002010-02-02T11:49:23.899-05:00So, G-d forbid, someone close to you dies. Chas v&...So, G-d forbid, someone close to you dies. Chas v'shalom. What will you do? <br />I'm guessing you would still light a yarzheit candle.Devorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-26963357985955286272010-02-02T11:45:04.499-05:002010-02-02T11:45:04.499-05:00absolutely, that Judaism draws this parallel, base...absolutely, that Judaism draws this parallel, based on Mishlei, ki ner Hashem nishmat Adam. but while this background is absolutely true, this was an explanation offered to a practice with no recorded history, and which became prevalent at the same time the Catholics were doing it, and using the same name (Jarzeit) that the Catholics were using. i am not convinced that the practice really draws from this Jewish background. there are plenty of newfangled practices which arise from the surrounding culture, or for other reasons, and which are subsequently rationalized on the basis of existing doctrine.<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-77543873883495817532010-02-02T11:08:43.964-05:002010-02-02T11:08:43.964-05:00Judaism see similarity between a candle's flam...Judaism see similarity between a candle's flame and a soul. The connection between flames and souls derives from the Book of Proverbs (chapter 20, verse 27): "The soul of man is the light of God." Just as a flame is never still, the soul also continuously strives to reach up to God. Thus, the flickering flame of the Yahrzeit candle helps to remind us of the departed soul of our loved one.<br /><br />http://judaism.about.com/od/deathandmourning/f/yahrzeit_how.htmDevorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-44955532426023140342010-02-02T03:15:56.735-05:002010-02-02T03:15:56.735-05:00"I don't think DOM was going on the offen..."I don't think DOM was going on the offensive"<br />Agreed. though the best defense is a good offense.<br /><br />but in trying to establish a response, she claimed the ability to *prove* that lighting candles for the dead anytime and anywhere has *always* been Jewish tradition.<br /><br />however, the purported proof showed no such thing. there was no evidence that Tannaim did this. (Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi, in the source *I* cited, was a special case, as according to that aggada he returned to make kiddush every week). there was no evidence Amoraim did it. there was no evidence Rishonim did it, and the Rabbenu Bachya which was cited was not proof to this. indeed, the very practice of lighting candles, during Yom Kippur and Yartzeit, which is the minimal case, appears during the time of the Acharonim. So to counter a claim by "uneducated Jews" by "proving" that it has *always* been the case is extremely questionable.<br /><br />also, she cites Ben Ish Chai and then, indirectly, a secondary source referring to an idea in Mishna Brurah, but there is nothing particular to those quotes that it means times even not during the Yahrzeit or Yom Kippur. Gor that, she anonymously cites one person writing today, as if this shows conclusively that this has always been the case.<br /><br />i agree with the pre-Christian association. but this does not demonstrate a concrete practice of lighting candles. meanwhile, there is an explicit gemara in Avodah Zarah about lighting pyres for the dead being forbidden -- and this is then allowed particularly for Jewish kings, not for any random tzaddik. and meanwhile, we see no reference to the practice until it first became prevalent among Christians. there are then two ways of dealing with this. we can claim they got it from us, or we can say that we got it from them, but then in attempted justification of the practice of the <i>hamon am</i>, some people cited the Jewish, pre-Christian idea, as an apologetic. to me, the latter seems much more probable, given the evidence we have.<br /><br />regardless, my concern was not towards the practices (mine here was just a response to the purported "proof"), but how the practices combine with particular belief. as you wrote, "Therefore we pray at a tzaddik's grave, and may light a candle in his/her honour. It doesn't mean we pray TO them, G-d forbid, we pray to Hashem. We just hope that the tzaddik can intervene on our behalf." but that did not seem to be DOM's belief, when she said that Miriam and the Abir Yaakov were evaluating the tefillot in order to b"h fulfill them.<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-58069005082491359072010-02-01T16:57:57.297-05:002010-02-01T16:57:57.297-05:00I don't think DOM was going on the offensive, ...I don't think DOM was going on the offensive, she was responding to your offensive the other day.<br /><br />That quote from the book says:<br />"This association of the flame with the soul is certainly pre-Christian".<br /><br />So the Xtians didn't invent it. They probably took it from the Jews.<br /><br />Some people light 5 candles during the shiva, one for each level of the soul. <br /><br />it is a misconception that people (may) pray to the tzaddik/person for whom they are lighting the candle. That's like saying if you say mishnayos in the name of a deceased, you are also praying to them. Totally ridiculous.<br /><br />We believe that a tzaddik has influence in Heaven whereas we may not. Therefore we pray at a tzaddik's grave, and may light a candle in his/her honour. It doesn't mean we pray TO them, G-d forbid, we pray to Hashem. We just hope that the tzaddik can intervene on our behalf.Devorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.com