tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post6246930286865585206..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Is Obama A 'Dark-Horse' Candidate To Be Gog?joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-24341622236661168952008-11-25T14:19:00.000-05:002008-11-25T14:19:00.000-05:00Why blame Aliya Jews collapsing USA by moving mone...Why blame Aliya Jews collapsing USA by moving money to India? Carolignian Brzezinski spawned Zia al Haq, Khomeini, and bin Laden - breaks up superpowers via Aztlan and Kosovo as per Joel Garreau's Nine Nations. Brzezinski, Buckley and Buchanan winked anti-Semitic votes for Obama, delivered USA to Pope's feudal basket of Bamana Republics. Michael Pfleger and Joe Biden prove Obama is the Pope's boy. Talal got Pontifical medal as Fatima mandates Catholic-Muslim union against Jews (Francis Johnson, Great Sign, 1979, p. 126), Catholic Roger Taney wrote Dred Scott decision. John Wilkes Booth, Tammany Hall and Joe McCarthy were Catholics. Now Catholic majority Supreme Court. NYC top drop outs: Hispanic 32%, Black 25%, Italian 20%. NYC top illegals: Ecuadorean, Italian, Polish. Ate glis-glis but blamed plague on others, now lettuce coli. Their bigotry most encouraged terror yet they reap most security funds. Rabbi circumcizes lower, Pope upper brain. Tort explosion by glib casuistry. Bazelya 1992 case proves PLO-IRA-KLA links.Superb Jonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06389378154059719342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-68525534835204635602008-11-13T17:51:00.000-05:002008-11-13T17:51:00.000-05:00yachol lihyot.but two quick replies.1) Shadal else...yachol lihyot.<BR/><BR/>but two quick replies.<BR/><BR/>1) Shadal elsewhere explains "acharit hayamim" to mean not the "End of Days" but rather in later days.<BR/><BR/>2) If, as Shadal is suggesting, John <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hyrcanus" REL="nofollow">Hyrcanus</A> was the one who fulfilled this prophecy, then we could say that this *religious* Hashmonean ruling of Eretz Yisrael as being והיתה לה' המלוכה.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-23899543604685283722008-11-13T17:46:00.000-05:002008-11-13T17:46:00.000-05:00אם כן, אימא סיפא:והיתה לה' המלוכהThis pasuk is mos...אם כן, אימא סיפא:<BR/><BR/>והיתה לה' המלוכה<BR/><BR/>This pasuk is most certainly referring to the End of Days, when Hashem's reign will be known throughout.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-68727553543237626682008-11-13T16:57:00.000-05:002008-11-13T16:57:00.000-05:00indeed, Shadal's claim that there is no more Edom ...indeed, Shadal's claim that there is no more Edom is almost certainly rooted in that same context in Yeshaya, two pesukim earlier, pasuk 18:<BR/>וְלֹא-יִהְיֶה שָׂרִיד לְבֵית עֵשָׂו<BR/>18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the LORD hath spoken. <BR/><BR/>which would then quite strongly suggest that he held that pasuk 21 was also already fulfilled.<BR/><BR/>KT,<BR/>Joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-74272363887891987732008-11-13T16:52:00.000-05:002008-11-13T16:52:00.000-05:00perhaps. shadal did suggest the prophecies in Vayi...perhaps. shadal did suggest the prophecies in Vayishlach were already fulfilled. <BR/><BR/> ורב יעבוד צעיר: הגוי והלאום הנולד מן הבכור יעבוד לנולד מן הצעיר, והכוונה על אדום שנכבשו תחת יד ישראל בימי דוד ובימי הורקנוס<BR/>" "And the elder shall serve the younger": The nations born from the firstborn will serve the one born from the younger. And the intent is to Edom which is conquered under the hand of Israel in the days of David and in the days of Hyrcanus."<BR/><BR/>perhaps these could also be interpreted as fulfilled for Sefer Ovadiah.<BR/><BR/>Also even *if* we grant that Edom still exists, it needs to be proven that Edom is present-day US.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-412133290331906872008-11-13T16:37:00.000-05:002008-11-13T16:37:00.000-05:00If Edom is no longer, how would you interpret "ועל...If Edom is no longer, how would you interpret "ועלו מושיעים בהר ציון לשפט את הר עשו"?<BR/>Surely, you don't suggest that this prophecy was fulfilled already, do you?yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-19627315398087403942008-11-13T10:17:00.000-05:002008-11-13T10:17:00.000-05:00>To say America is not Edom needs proof. !To sa...>To say America is not Edom needs proof. <BR/><BR/>!<BR/><BR/>To say that America is Edom is what needs proof.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-271523243032305172008-11-13T08:03:00.000-05:002008-11-13T08:03:00.000-05:001) It most likely *is* being misapplied, as everyo...1) It most likely *is* being misapplied, as everyone is coming up with random gematrias based on free-association to random words and then supplying their connection. It is just like the fake Divrei Torah at Simchas, where the chassan's name minus plus the kallah's name is equal to three times kugel, which is appropriate because they both love potato kugel.<BR/><BR/>2) Whether or not gematria is a sound system for derivation is a matter of dispute. Baal HaTurim, as just discussed (see <A HREF="http://parsha.blogspot.com/2008/11/what-was-name-of-lots-wife-and-why.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>), uses it "lehamshic et halev," and as support for things already proven via other means.<BR/><BR/>The brayta giving the 32 hermeneutical principles of Rabbi Eleazer bno shel Rabbi Yossi HaGelili does mention it. But even there, one needs be careful in how it applied, IMHO.<BR/><BR/>Bach, Raaviah, Ibn Ezra, and others, speak somewhat derogatorily about gematria. (I'll be posting Bach on this pretty soon, BeEzrat Hashem.) And Shadal believes that it, and other methods commonly used by kabbalists, are nonsense. But this should not get to the level of a kabbalist/antikabbalist.<BR/><BR/>In terms of the burden of proof, I am simply sharing my assessment of what has been "proven" so far. And the burden of proof need not be on me, IMHO. I *do* have reasons for thinking as I do, but I do not always elaborate on them, or even if I do, I do not do so in every post.<BR/><BR/>3) To say America is Edom needs proof! It was a particular country, Chazal applied it to a different country (Rome), and then Rome was destroyed. The Malbim and Maharal may say that Christian nations are an extension of Edom, but that is presumably explaining how Rome, and the Christian empire, was applied by Chazal. See also Ibn Ezra who writes similarly. But the Roman empire was destroyed, a few centuries after Ibn Ezra. To then take it to refer to a *specific* country, and not Italy, but rather across the ocean, and say that *this* country, America, is Edom, seems like quite a leap to me.<BR/><BR/>Meanwhile, <A HREF="http://parsha.blogspot.com/2007/11/toledot-is-edom-equal-to-rome-and.html" REL="nofollow">Shadal writes</A> that Edom has been destroyed, and the prophecies regarding Edom fulfilled -- first by David and then in the days of Hyrcanus. And that Chazal were only nicknaming the Romans Edom because of how they were oppressing them.<BR/><BR/>4) If Magog is the area you specified, then neither Bush nor Obama is the king of it. This is *one* explanation, but IIRC, there are a few other identifications. There is a tendency to identify one's contemporary events as the fight of Gog and Magog, and identify the countries as such. For example, Rabbi Menachem Mendel of Rimanov was a big supporter of Napoleon, believing that his wars were the wars of Gog and Magog. Should we now look for a scenario involving the French?<BR/><BR/>Kol Tuv,<BR/>Joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-5613539388504444072008-11-13T01:51:00.000-05:002008-11-13T01:51:00.000-05:00I'm not going to say who is who, but gematria is a...I'm not going to say who is who, but gematria is a sound system, it might be missed applied, but that is a problem of the person. First of all everything in the Tanach can be applied to now, because we know that the Anshei Knesset Gedolah compiled it for the future.<BR/><BR/>Second of all you have a habit of throwing everybody's arguments out without proof. I believe the burden of proof is on the attacker. To say America is not Edom needs proof. We know that the Malbim and the Mahaaral said clearly that the Chrisitan Nations are an extention of Edom/Esau. We also know according to the Malbim's commentary that Gog is actually from Esau, but also rules over Meshech and Tuval. According to some commentaries, Gog is not from Magog. Not only that but Magog seems to be the area of Iran and Afganistan. That is not just a bunch of bloggers saying that, but Rav Areah Kaplan says it in his Living Torah. Now I am not saying whos who, but unless you are going to throw out all the Rabbeim I just mentioned then Josh the burden of proof is on you.D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/02009860852530071867noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-87686557029120601582008-11-12T23:03:00.000-05:002008-11-12T23:03:00.000-05:00very interesting, thanks.very interesting, thanks.Devorahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00793434651294780439noreply@blogger.com