tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post5900461358871369764..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: How was Yosef's milah different from that of the Egyptians?joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-88366195371390685832015-12-20T11:01:27.583-05:002015-12-20T11:01:27.583-05:00I thought about this issue over the weekend becaus...I thought about this issue over the weekend because it was parashas VaYigash, and lo and behold ran across your very interesting comment last night. I don't think that aposthia would prove to the brothers that it was Yosef. Although aposthia is a very rare condition it does occur among goyim. Midrashim list among others Shes, Noach, Balaam and Iyov as having been born this way. There are various opinions as to when Iyov lived, but some place him in the time of Yaakov. And per midrashim, he was one of the three chief advisers to Pharaoh (at a later date). Moreover, the brothers describe the man as"HaIsh' and Iyov is identified as an Ish at the beginning of Sefer Iyov. Balaam was another of those advisers. Although on the surface he lived later, there are some hints that he (and Balak) were the Bnei Lavan who complained about the "Kavod" that Yaakov took from his father--Balaam and Balak hailed from Lavan's area and Balak said "Chaveid Achabedcha Meod." Furthermore, per the Midrash Tanchuma the donkey crushed Balaam's foot because he was violating the Bris between Lavan and Yaakov-the Kir was the Gal in VaYetzei. And the language at the VaYeztei (VaYashav L'Mkomo, Shav L'Dark0) is eerily similar to the language when Balaam parted from Balak. <br /><br />It is also worth noting that the Rokeach identifies Balaam and Iyov, respectively, as the first two kings of Edom listed in Parashas VaYishlach--Bela be Beor and Yovav ben Zerach M'Bazra. <br /><br />Given that apothsia occurs among goyim, and in particular royalty such as Iyov and Balaam, it would not conclusively prove that the man was Yosef. Indeed, given that the brothers would have been horrified to discover that Yosef's dreams had come true, they most likely would have dismissed any proof that was not 100% ironclad no matter how unlikely the alternative. There would have to have been something special about Yosef's condition that not only distinguished him from males circumcised in the usual way but also distinguished him from apothsetic males born outside the family of Yaakov. I can think of only one possibility--the tipat dam taken from such a baby left a unique mark in the place of the milah. Such a mark would have distinguished the house of Yaakov because it would not be found on goyim who would not have drawn blood in this situation. Moreover, given that Gad was another of those born mahul, it would be possible to compare him and Yosef and see the similarity. I'm not sure, however, whether this kind of a procedure would leave any permanent mark. Do you know the answer to this?<br /><br />Edward Perelmuter Edhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16432633206323903625noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-26814804595565242372011-12-29T09:22:30.028-05:002011-12-29T09:22:30.028-05:00nice.
in terms of your first answer, the Chizkuni...nice.<br /><br />in terms of your first answer, the Chizkuni apparently offers it:<br />ובס' חזקוני תירץ דשאני מילת <br />הישמעאלים שנימולים בהיותם בני שלש <br />עשרה, והיה ניכר שמילתן משונה מבני יעקב.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-54931754775311619712011-12-29T08:19:28.923-05:002011-12-29T08:19:28.923-05:00I'm going to suggest two answers ... never a s...I'm going to suggest two answers ... never a sign of confidence, but anyway:<br /><br />First, a circumcision that was done close to birth surely looks different to one that is performed on an adult - within the past few years, in fact.<br /><br />But even if you say that a circumcision is a circumcision then of course the circumcision <b>itself</b> is no proof - any random stranger might have been circumcised for one reason or another. What impressed the brothers was that Yosef knew that circumcision was significant to them, and this was what demonstrated that he was really a member of their family.Joe in Australianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-41650458214055667642011-12-28T17:29:18.087-05:002011-12-28T17:29:18.087-05:00It is a good answer.
My hangup is that the *feel*...It is a good answer.<br /><br />My hangup is that the *feel* of the midrash is that he is showing them things which, by their very nature, would clearly and immediately identify him as a Jew. Thus, that he is speaking Hebrew and that he has bris milah. <br /><br />So even if it is resolvable on careful consideration, it does not *feel* to me to be the plain intent of the midrashist. Which is why I'm going to like the question better than any answer.<br /><br />By the way, I just checked <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=42875&st=&pgnum=159" rel="nofollow">Birkas Avraham</a> and see that he suggests the same as my answer, about nolad mahul. Baruch shekivanti!joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-7819166486436298182011-12-28T15:38:27.734-05:002011-12-28T15:38:27.734-05:00Surely Yosef didn't demand that the ruling cla...Surely Yosef didn't demand that the ruling class of Egypt be circumcised; only the masses. Do you think that Paroah then was circumcised?<br />The fact that a ruler of Egypt would have been circumcised was therefore proof.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-91252633163425494582011-12-28T11:58:17.352-05:002011-12-28T11:58:17.352-05:00I think so; in modern Muslim circumcision, they so...I think so; in <a href="http://www.circlist.com/styles/page3.html" rel="nofollow">modern Muslim circumcision</a>, they sometimes leave the frenulum:<br /><br />"Generally speaking, modern Islamic circumcision is neither fully High nor fully Low in style, it is substantially loose and it retains the frenulum. "<br /><br />Meanwhile, priah involves <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=K2uVAVusbF0C&lpg=PA161&ots=m7vocVRdbE&dq=muslim%20no%20periah%20circumcision&pg=PA161#v=onepage&q=muslim%20no%20periah%20circumcision&f=false" rel="nofollow">excising the frenulum</a>.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-60788876260769844052011-12-28T11:45:07.269-05:002011-12-28T11:45:07.269-05:00I have never understood in practical terms how it ...I have never understood in practical terms how it is possible to do milah without periah. If the periah skin is not folded back it will cover the atara and make things very awkward, and there will be a big open sore along a large section of the aiver, which (if it heals at all) would leave a very nasty scar. I understand that there was no specific mitzvah in periah, but is there any record of anyone at any time or place doing milah without periah?Rabbi Sedleyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03216379873253870218noreply@blogger.com