tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post5081322840341428302..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: How The Trickster Maggid Fleeced A Misnagedjoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-8892404011404779982007-06-28T11:24:00.000-04:002007-06-28T11:24:00.000-04:00"And Chassidim need to be taken "to task for the h..."And Chassidim need to be taken "to task for the hatred they spread against Misnagdim."<BR/>Right!!! [not]"<BR/><BR/>The fact is that many Hassidim regularly tell over tales that cast Misnagdim in a bad light. It is questionable whether they are accurate, but even if they are, they happened a long time ago, so what do they have to do with misnagdim of today ?<BR/><BR/>I haven't seen them including disclaimers when they tell such stories, such as 'that doesn't mean all misnagdim are like that' or 'that was a long time ago, nowadays things are different'. So those who hear the stories, often youngsters, are given the impression that misnagdim are just plain evil people, rather than just Yidden who have a different derech in avodas Hashem.<BR/><BR/>That is called spreading hate and encouraging animosity.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-2777031809360390602007-06-28T05:20:00.000-04:002007-06-28T05:20:00.000-04:00by the way, since you like my analyses so much, yo...by the way, since you like my analyses so much, you might like my analysis of a <A HREF="http://parsha.blogspot.com/2007/06/meshichist-gimmel-tammuz-essay-analysis.html" REL="nofollow">recent meshichist Gimmel Tammuz essay</A>, which was reposted without the blog owner's realization that it was meshichist.<BR/><BR/><A HREF="http://parsha.blogspot.com/2007/06/meshichist-gimmel-tammuz-essay-analysis.html" REL="nofollow">Here</A>.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-79132467734881439642007-06-28T05:08:00.000-04:002007-06-28T05:08:00.000-04:00ignoring the repeated ad hominems, except to point...ignoring the repeated ad hominems, except to point out that that is what they are<BR/><BR/>...<BR/><BR/>it is interesting that people start denying the authenticity and accuracy of the story once they realize what negative consequences arise from assuming it is true, and not beforehand.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-43967397551868934532007-06-28T02:20:00.000-04:002007-06-28T02:20:00.000-04:00Who knows? Bottom line is, you can't analyze a Cha...Who knows? Bottom line is, you can't analyze a Chassidic story, especially when told by R. Shlomo Carlebach, as you would a pasuk Chumash or a Gemara. And you are not Rashi, Tosfos, or R. Chaim Brisker, much as you probably would like to be. Stick to Chumash & Gemara.yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-57238908218377902682007-06-27T05:29:00.000-04:002007-06-27T05:29:00.000-04:00Did he also not wear tzitzit in his room, for simi...Did he also not wear tzitzit in his room, for similar reasons (so as not to embarrass the souls)?joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-34223087060062429452007-06-27T04:54:00.000-04:002007-06-27T04:54:00.000-04:00His not having seforim in his room is also a pecul...<I>His not having seforim in his room is also a peculiarity that seems designed to further this impression that he communicated with dead souls. It is also possible that he did not like to learn, and preferred to spend this time in seclusion resting on his bed and eating.</I><BR/>You should know that you & your readers don't come up to his ankles, neither in Learning nor in Kedusha. Have you ever seen his <I>Magen Avraham</I>?<BR/>And Chassidim need to be taken "to task for the hatred they spread against Misnagdim."<BR/>Right!!! [not]yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-14527683254490216182007-06-27T00:07:00.000-04:002007-06-27T00:07:00.000-04:00well, true because both the great-great grandson o...well, true because both the great-great grandson of the misnaged turned chassid, and the great-great grandson of the maggid, confirmed it (after Shlomo Carlebach said it).<BR/><BR/>as for the details, sure some embellishment is possible, perhaps likely, but the base details don't seem like things added, and in fact smack of true things which were interpreted in various positive ways. for example the not eating and sleeping, and keeping any sefer out of the room. It is a judgment call.<BR/><BR/>what unembellished version of the story would you believe that does not have this same negative light cast, to a rationalist?joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-55060858029955033622007-06-26T18:32:00.000-04:002007-06-26T18:32:00.000-04:00Why in heaven's name do you think this story is tr...Why in heaven's name do you think this story is true and if true why do you think Shlomo recounted the details accurately? He embellished stories all the time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-73055345811008830552007-06-26T14:49:00.000-04:002007-06-26T14:49:00.000-04:00*They have been getting*They have been gettingAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-49989055337348091972007-06-26T14:40:00.000-04:002007-06-26T14:40:00.000-04:00יישר כחך !It's about time someone shined a light o...יישר כחך !<BR/><BR/>It's about time someone shined a light on these Hassidic tales, put them under scrutiny and took them to task for the hatred they spread against Misnagdim.<BR/><BR/>They have getting a free ride for too long with their bubba mayses.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-54391977738943215092007-06-26T13:34:00.000-04:002007-06-26T13:34:00.000-04:00obviously not.but i was talking about the story ab...obviously not.<BR/>but i was talking about the story about the tzaddik who was judging neshamot when in the *next* world, and yelling at them "how could you do this." which does not have to do with tikkun neshamot.<BR/><BR/>gilgul, by the way is not necessarily a Jewish concept.<BR/><BR/>and the point of the statement seems to be an attempt to bridge the gap between Chassidic gullibility and misnagdish skepticism, so the fact that it is widely accepted by Chassidim does not really matter much to me.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-48988370465064799502007-06-26T13:29:00.000-04:002007-06-26T13:29:00.000-04:00A few final PSs:1. One man's reading comprehension...A few final PSs:<BR/>1. One man's reading comprehension is another's Brisker diyukim.<BR/>2. The Chozeh's statement is widely accepted amongst Chassidim. I'm sure there are those who attribute it to other Chassidic Rebbes as well.yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-7836853708701734382007-06-26T13:26:00.000-04:002007-06-26T13:26:00.000-04:00...that takes the judging of souls after death awa...<I>...that takes the judging of souls after death away from HaKadosh Baruck Hu and assigns it to tzaddikim, with human subjectivity?</I><BR/>We obviously have a very different take on what's going on here, & I don't see the point of arguing further. The concept of <I>tikkun neshamos</I> - does that mean anything to you? Sometimes a neshama needs to come back into this world [& not always as a human] to fix one thing - why can't tzaddikim help with that?yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-56333344373855589812007-06-26T13:04:00.000-04:002007-06-26T13:04:00.000-04:00oy. it is not a Brisker diyuk into "every word", b...oy. it is not a Brisker diyuk into "every word", but rather a recounting of the details of the story. it is simple reading comprehension.<BR/><BR/>my point about the BeShem Omro is that what you presented as a generic statement (which thus has the import of being absolute truth) is the opinion of one person. and that not everyone has to agree with the Chozeh of Lublin.<BR/><BR/>for example, if I relate a generic statement that "anyone who argues on the historicity of midrashim is an apikores," then it gives the impression that this is the only opinion on the subject matter. In fact, while it might represent the opinion of Rav Aharon Kotler and the Ran, it does not represent the opinion of e.g. Shmuel haNagid.<BR/><BR/>Finally, let me tell you a story about the Chozeh of Lublin. When he died, thousands of people saw that he ascended on high in a flaming chariot and was seated on the Throne of Glory, becoming part of the Godhead. <BR/><BR/>I just made it up. But do you believe that since it is a chassidishe story, someone who denies that it *could* have happened is an apikores? Is apotheosis now acceptable belief, because it "could have happened?"<BR/><BR/>What about the preceding story on your blog, that takes the judging of souls after death away from HaKadosh Baruck Hu and assigns it to tzaddikim, with human subjectivity? That is overturning Jewish religious belief just as much.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-38424610954444154992007-06-26T13:03:00.000-04:002007-06-26T13:03:00.000-04:00bored FOOLbored FOOLAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-33842169282478205582007-06-26T12:36:00.000-04:002007-06-26T12:36:00.000-04:00And oh, yes, the statement about the na'ar-apikori...And oh, yes, the statement about the na'ar-apikoris was made by [gasp!] the Chozeh of Lublin, as recounted by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan [oh, no, another one of those crazy Chassidim!] :))<BR/>Kol tuv..........yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-15913104015080321422007-06-26T12:35:00.000-04:002007-06-26T12:35:00.000-04:00Josh, your eizeneh "Brisker" logic is going around...Josh, your eizeneh "Brisker" logic is going around in circles. Read between the lines, & make a Brisker hairsplitting diyuk on every word of... a Reb Shlomo Carlebach story! Come on!<BR/>The Rebbe's dialog with the neshama was over; all that was left was to give instructions to the man. And whatever other neshamos [that he certainly couldn't see, as the story says he couldn't see any feet!] took off! Just as plausible as your interpretation.yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-42975932418826925672007-06-26T12:13:00.000-04:002007-06-26T12:13:00.000-04:00"How many departed souls have you encountered in y..."How many departed souls have you encountered in your lifetime, Josh?"<BR/><BR/>besides its irrelevance, how many departed souls have you encountered, yitz?<BR/><BR/>if away they went, how did he accompany the soul to the cemetery? for according to the story, the Trisker Rebbe said, "Take my stick and walk with the soul of this man to the cemetery."<BR/><BR/>look, any rationalization is possible. The question is plausibility, and it is only "just as plausibly, if not more so," from your particular world view. Most others would laugh.<BR/><BR/>(ps. I responded to you post on the Gerrer Rebbe's curse.)<BR/><BR/>Kol Tuv,<BR/>Joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-77887038739436990922007-06-26T12:03:00.000-04:002007-06-26T12:03:00.000-04:00and don't you think the story would have mentioned...<I>and don't you think the story would have mentioned it, had he heard the soul after it?</I><BR/>How many departed souls have you encountered in your lifetime, Josh? And tell me, Mr. Rationality, isn't it at all possible that the man under the bed really didn't deserve to experience ANY contact with these souls? So he was "allowed" to hear the conversation they had with the Maggid when he couldn't see them... but when he came out, away they went. Just as plausible, if not more so, than your ventriloquist idea.yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-86715600810671554692007-06-26T10:54:00.000-04:002007-06-26T10:54:00.000-04:00"Whoever believes every Chassidic story they hear ..."Whoever believes every Chassidic story they hear is a na'ar; whoever doesn't believe they COULD have happened is an Aprikoris."<BR/><BR/>Yes, that is a great quote. But state it beShem Omro. And just because it is a great quote does not mean that everyone subscribes to it, and that anyone who disagrees with the statement is indeed an apikores. <BR/><BR/>In that respect it is self-serving. <BR/><BR/>I can think of many religious rationalists who would likely (IMHO, admittedly) disagree with that statement.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-54436444724778761982007-06-26T10:52:00.000-04:002007-06-26T10:52:00.000-04:00yitz:Yes, indeed, it was a tongue-in-cheek way of ...yitz:<BR/>Yes, indeed, it was a tongue-in-cheek way of saying that I don't believe it.<BR/><BR/>and it *does* say that in the story. first the chassid hears the soul talk. then he comes out from under the bed. then,<BR/><BR/>"The Yiddeleh looked around. The greatest nightmare of all was that there was absolutely no one else in the room, only himself and the Trisker Maggid. 'Knock on the first grave in the second row and say that Avraham ben Chana orders Shmuel ben Rivka to give one penny to fix the neshama of this Yiddeleh - Yosseleh, his neighbor.'"<BR/><BR/>read between the lines. and don't you think the story would have mentioned it, had he heard the soul after it?<BR/><BR/>the problem is actually that I *do* believe this story occurred, just that the explanations of the phenomena described is different.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-22320744839988500492007-06-26T10:51:00.000-04:002007-06-26T10:51:00.000-04:00"Aha, mr anonymous...think about it a little!!! An..."Aha, mr anonymous...think about it a little!!! And whose self is it serving??"<BR/><BR/>The people who are inflated by these stories.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-3078354620938116502007-06-26T10:47:00.000-04:002007-06-26T10:47:00.000-04:00Anonymous:"How about the Ruzhiner Rebbe who lived ...Anonymous:<BR/>"How about the Ruzhiner Rebbe who lived like a multi-millionare and *supposedly* wore fancy shoes without soles?"<BR/><BR/>Actually, that I can believe. It sounds like an ascetic practice that one can adopt even when contradicted by a lavish lifestyle. Consider the Rothschild custom of sleeping in a coffin. And it is not in the realm of the impossible.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-35282977817605070662007-06-26T10:41:00.000-04:002007-06-26T10:41:00.000-04:00Aha, mr anonymous...think about it a little!!! And...Aha, mr anonymous...think about it a little!!! And whose self is it serving???yitzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08523302947845887661noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-89260595182637429172007-06-26T10:31:00.000-04:002007-06-26T10:31:00.000-04:00""Whoever believes every Chassidic story they hear...""Whoever believes every Chassidic story they hear is a na'ar; whoever doesn't believe they COULD have happened is an Aprikoris." Which are you?"<BR/><BR/>That's a little self serving. Why could they have happened if it's naarish to believe they did?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com