tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post5051591439420314071..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Dybbuks, Gedolim, and adding to ikkarei emunah via makchich magidehajoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-56537083799095220712010-01-28T19:32:52.615-05:002010-01-28T19:32:52.615-05:00cheftza (as gerund) vs. gavra is an interesting po...cheftza (as gerund) vs. gavra is an interesting point. but rav yosef karo came around several hundred years after the ramban, who tried to eliminate it for the same. (see also <a href="http://onthemainline.blogspot.com/2007/07/missing-minhag-shtus-in-shulchan-aruch.html" rel="nofollow">this post</a>, about the heading of minhag shtus.)<br /><br />in terms of shifting towards the divide of אפילו על שמאל שהוא ימין ועל ימין שהוא שמאל, that is only if we take the minority position of the sefer haChinuch that it applies to Gedolim, rather than the vast majority opinion that this statement in Bavli refers only to rulings of the Sanhedrin. and even for the Sanhedrin, i suspect that the phrase was intended as rhetorical exaggeration, but really about psak halacha rather than about hashkafa or more importantly physical reality. if the Sanhedrin declared that right was actually left, or that the sun rises in the west, would we be obligated to follow them? i strongly doubt it.<br /><br />and in terms of the Sifrei, i think the words אפילו מראין בעיניך are much more important than they are commonly taken, namely that it refers to false perception, rather than actual reality. and the gemara (Bavli) in Horayot itself puts limits on what constitutes a valid psak, such that there are aspects of zil gmor. and so on and so forth.<br /><br />you are right. it is a very detailed sugya, and now isn't the time to get into it...<br /><br />and besides, this arrives back at wrestling with <b>methodological</b> questions about whether we are permitted to say X or Y, which is what i think one should avoid. frankly, i think the correct path is that if a particular religion requires us to *believe* falsehoods, then the religion is false, and is not worth practicing.<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-66117992631173443202010-01-28T19:08:40.370-05:002010-01-28T19:08:40.370-05:00Josh,
Regarding the Rambam calling people fools, ...Josh,<br /><br />Regarding the Rambam calling people fools, I believe that was OK for the Rambam to do - not for us. There are so many various Minhagim which have lasted through the test of time. To suddenly call such actions foolish is an affront to the previous generations, who have had halachic backing for these minhagim. (If the halachic basis is shaky, then we can call it a Minhag Shetut - not a Noheg Shoteh.) The same with R' Yosef Karo calling something Darkei Emori, where the practice was relatively new as opposed to our day where it's been through the wringer and has come out as a valid minhag anyways. You have a choice to not do it and to even encourage others from not doing it, as there is halachic basis for that too. You cannot nowadays call people foolish for doing it, though.<br /><br />Regarding this issue, you've transfered it from the mystical/rationalist divide to the "Do we hold like the Yerushalmi or like the Midrash regarding אפילו על שמאל שהוא ימין ועל ימין שהוא שמאל?" argument, which I'm not in the mood to get into again.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-75168691577450441322010-01-28T10:02:26.081-05:002010-01-28T10:02:26.081-05:00This was a good post. Thank you.
An additional a...This was a good post. Thank you. <br /><br />An additional aspect of this problem is that rabbonim are too willing to lend their names out and even when they don't, they are regularly misquoted.<br /><br />I would say that one is not a gadol if one is not willing to buck the trend.Yerachmiel Lopinhttp://frumfollies.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-29718318802478610612010-01-27T23:12:34.447-05:002010-01-27T23:12:34.447-05:00there is a habit i picked up of attacking the foun...there is a habit i picked up of attacking the foundations. thus, in this case, dismiss dybbuks despite some kabbalistic and earlier similar sources, at times by questioning those sources. this has the nasty side-effect of reducing all such disputes into the standard rationalist / mystical divide. but i think that one can argue it as being questionable, even within the mystical shitta. i just don't argue it so as not to grant the assumptions. thus, i would guess both rav shternbuch and rav kanievsky admit to the occasional reality of dybbuks, as grounded in kabbalistic belief, yet they still maintain it is a mental case. particularly why this is so is certainly interesting, and perhaps i should have tried to argue it like that...<br /><br />there is another danger, in reducing it to Rambam vs. anti-Rambam. and that is, as you said, that I have Rambam and Saadia Gaon to rely upon, while you have many, many other great rabbis to rely upon.<br /><br />however, here is my "out". i, too, don't like to think that my only basis and defense is that i have Rabbi X to rely upon. Whether that is the Rambam, or as Mississippi Fred MacDowell said above, Rav Soloveitchik. Rather, what I think I am relying upon is the Truth. And I hope I would be courageous to maintain what I believe to be truth even if I did not have Chazal, Geonim, or Rishonim to back me up.<br /><br />If it is a dispute about truth, then having rabbis on either side is sometimes irrelevant. is there elu veElu about flat-earth vs. round earth, or geocentricity vs. heliocentricity. in the extreme example, about the number of teeth?<br /><br />so i don't think it always reduces to a case of each side being able to rely on their rabbis...<br /><br />Mississipi:<br />Thanks. I'll try to <a href="http://www.rayimahuvim.org/lectures/Summer_09/Rav_Eliyashiv.mp3" rel="nofollow">check it out</a>. And indeed. <br /><br />YG:<br />:)<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-15938104984666438252010-01-27T22:54:19.752-05:002010-01-27T22:54:19.752-05:00yaak:
thanks for the clarification, and thanks for...yaak:<br />thanks for the clarification, and thanks for the sentiment as well. <br /><br />to hopefully reassure you, i wasn't taking it as that. rather, i often find that when tackling an issue, i will either make a post on my blog or else argue it out in the comments in another blog. so when all this dybbuk stuff was going down, i was noting all this stuff in your comment section, rather than making it into a post. i noted some of them in response to things you said, in terms of ordering my thoughts, but i would have noted them anyway. and so the "kofer" business was sparked by comments i saw there, and nothing that you particularly said. <br /><br />the following consists of random, disjointed comments -- thoughts about this bouncing about me head, which i did not organize into a nice ordered post. i apologize in advance.<br /><br />in terms of Elu veElu, i agree. and at the same time, i disagree. i think certainly for an outside observer, the answer may well be elu veElu. but at the same time, i think that it is legitimate for someone to think me, or others, a kofer, for differing with the Gedolim. (hey, meta-Elu veElu!) while i don't subscribe to that hashkafic understanding, different groups define kefirah in different ways, and who says everyone needs to agree to the Rambam in this restrictive definition of ikkarei emunah? and from the other perspective, does the Rambam (or his followers) need to respect the alternative position? can rambam call his opponents (regarding the issue of literal aggada) fools? must rav yosef karo refrain from calling shlugging kapparos a minhag shtus?joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-69133396404956245552010-01-27T19:19:07.664-05:002010-01-27T19:19:07.664-05:00"New Testament UMadda"
Love it!"New Testament UMadda"<br /><br />Love it!Yosef Greenberghttp://blog.yachdus.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-73630957534000938592010-01-27T14:27:00.949-05:002010-01-27T14:27:00.949-05:00When you ask about "we" and "us,&qu...When you ask about "we" and "us," I think you're touching on another point: must "we" heed Rav Elyashiv et al in general, or do we have another approach and other leaders? Rabbi Adam Mintz has an interesting, albeit ultimately disappointing to me, lecture on his shul's web site about just this specific question, "Must we listen to Rav Elyashiv?" He runs through various conceptions of rabbinic authority and of past and present rabbis, and ultimately (disappointingly for me) concludes that we do not for the sole reason that "we" are under the authorit of R. Soloveitchik, and that our entire <i>kat</i> is legitimate solely because of him.Mississippi Fred MacDowellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02734864605700159687noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-8792101010392669192010-01-27T12:35:40.794-05:002010-01-27T12:35:40.794-05:00R' Josh,
Since this post is likely an outcome ...R' Josh,<br />Since this post is likely an outcome of our previous discussions, I'd like to make a clarification.<br />Just to set the record straight, I never called you, nor do I think you to be, a Kofer, ח"ו. Adderabba, you're a truth-seeking individual with solid foundations to your views.<br />As long as the rabbis from both camps are not looked down upon with mockery or disdain, we'll have to leave it as an Eilu Ve'eilu situation.<br />Although I vehemently disagree with some of your views, you have a right to believe them. As do I.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.com