tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post4174306296110578206..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Va`era: How Did One Frog Become Many?joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger4125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-17625434601334704512008-01-16T20:38:00.000-05:002008-01-16T20:38:00.000-05:00Who are the different figures? All I see is Rabbi ...Who are the different figures? All I see is Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah, though with slightly different accounts of Rabbi Akiva's derasha. And always by the same figure, Rabbi Eleazar ben Azarya. (Unless I am missing some source, which is possible.)<BR/><BR/>But I do think you are on to something. This is a saying specific to Rabbi Eleazar ben Azaria. He says the same thing on a totally different derasha of Rabbi Akiva, on Chagiga 14a (and Sanhedrin 38b):<BR/><BR/>תלמוד בבלי מסכת חגיגה דף יד עמוד א <BR/><BR/> ואין לך נאה במלחמה אלא בחור. כתוב אחד אומר +דניאל ז'+ כרסיה שביבין דנור וכתוב אחד אומר +דניאל ז'+ עד די כרסון רמיו ועתיק יומין יתב! - לא קשיא: אחד לו ואחד לדוד. כדתניא: אחד לו ואחד לדוד, דברי רבי עקיבא. אמר לו רבי יוסי הגלילי: עקיבא! עד מתי אתה עושה שכינה חול! אלא: אחד לדין ואחד לצדקה. קיבלה מיניה או לא קיבלה מיניה? - תא שמע: אחד לדין ואחד לצדקה, דברי רבי עקיבא. אמר לו רבי אלעזר בן עזריה: עקיבא! מה לך אצל הגדה? כלך מדברותיך אצל נגעים ואהלות. אלא: אחד לכסא ואחד לשרפרף, כסא - לישב עליו, שרפרף - להדום רגליו, שנאמר +ישעיהו ס"ו+ השמים כסאי והארץ הדם רגלי. <BR/><BR/>It looks like Rabbi Yossi haGelili felt free to criticize Rabbi Akiva's derasha in strong and familiar terms, though he does not specifically say "don't quit your day job." That specific rejoinder seems specific to Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-65765090844779595782008-01-16T20:18:00.000-05:002008-01-16T20:18:00.000-05:00וַתַּעַל הַצְּפַרְדֵּעַ וַתְּכַס אֶת וגו' תני רבי ...וַתַּעַל הַצְּפַרְדֵּעַ וַתְּכַס אֶת וגו' תני רבי עקיבא אומר צפרדע אחת היתה והיא<BR/>השריצה ומלאה את ארץ מצרים אמר לו רבי אלעזר בן עזריה עקיבא מה לך אצל הגדה כלה מדברותיך ולך אצל נגעים ואהלות צפרדע אחת היתה ושרקה להן ובאו.<BR/><BR/>here you see v'hi hishritza with rebenazarya's dismissal<BR/><BR/>I dont have a theory, but you do see r akiva singled out and told to go back to halacha by different figures, it's something specific to r akiva. it's not unique to relazerben azarya and r akiva. It could be your number two, but why specifically r akiva? a theory would have to accomodate all the instances.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-22083964289826245832008-01-10T10:23:00.000-05:002008-01-10T10:23:00.000-05:00I'm not sure, but I can think of three possibiliti...I'm not sure, but I can think of three possibilities:<BR/><BR/>1) This is par for the course, part of the regular milchamtah shel Torah, approaching Torah discussions as a battle. And we find other harsh language, such as between Resh Lakish and Rabbi Yochanan. This was just such a memorable quote -- "don't quit your day job" -- that it was recorded together with the two opinions.<BR/><BR/>2) There was a rivalry between those who focused on midrash halacha and those who focused on midrash aggada. Rabbi Zera said famously that midrash aggada is valueless (though there are caveats), and one writer of a book midrash was cursed and died. <BR/><BR/>It could be that here, Rabbi Akiva was making a foray into the realm of midrash aggada, and one who did this professionally told him that this was not for amateurs, and so, in disagreeing with him, added that he should stick to midrash halacha.<BR/><BR/>3) Whether intended literally or thematically, a careful analysis of a midrash usually reveals that *every single detail* of the midrash has a basis in a textual hook.<BR/><BR/>For example, see <A HREF="http://parsha.blogspot.com/2006/07/parshat-pinchas-chamber-or-belly_14.html" REL="nofollow">this poston parshablog</A>, reading from "Let us now turn to consider some of the midrashim."<BR/><BR/>Both Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Eleazar ben Azarya have the textual hook of a single frog in one pasuk and multiple frogs in another. But while Rabbi Eleazar ben Azarya has his textual hook of sharatz/sharak for the whistling frog, Rabbi Akiva appears to lack this, and instead *only* has the thematic connection to the beating of the Israelites. (Middah kineged middah is a middah sheHaTorah nidreshet bah, but REbA also has this, and furthermore that is not the same as a textual hook.) Of course, just because I cannot identify the textual hook does not mean that there was none -- this can easily be my own limitation. But if the hook is missing, this could be why Rabbi Eleazar ben Azaria rejects Rabbi Akiva's position so forcefully, telling him that midrash aggada is not for amateurs.<BR/><BR/>Even not according to this, how would you read Rabbi Eleazar ben Azariah's dismissive attitude?<BR/><BR/>Kol Tuv,<BR/>Joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-16020595727690222612008-01-10T08:58:00.000-05:002008-01-10T08:58:00.000-05:00acc to this, why do you think RE is so dismissive ...acc to this, why do you think RE is so dismissive of RA's pshat?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com