tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post114139851662663808..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Yochananjoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1142150608192110512006-03-12T03:03:00.000-05:002006-03-12T03:03:00.000-05:00I posted the wrong link in the last comment. here ...I posted the wrong link in the last comment. here is the right one http://sixkidsandafulltimejob.blogspot.com/2006/03/elections-in-israel.htmlAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12871813557611586017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1142150545917280432006-03-12T03:02:00.000-05:002006-03-12T03:02:00.000-05:00I actually posted on this as well at the following...I actually posted on this as well at the following link http://parsha.blogspot.com/2006/03/rabbi-ovadia-yosef-and-rabbi-yochanan.html .<BR/><BR/>I think that Josh may have the nuance correct and that the subtle inference to the common man's ability to help in service of God was Rav Ovadyah's intent. However, when you are a public figure like Rav Ovadya (I would encourage people not to use ROY when talking about a Gadol) you also need to anticipate how your statements play in the public arena. In my opinion (and I think the Israeli press lays this out), Rav Ovadyah's statement, pro-torah as it may be, depricates religion in the public's eye. It does not help bring people closer to God but rather distances them further because of what they perceive as a eschatological election gimmickry.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12871813557611586017noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141706990963635252006-03-06T23:49:00.000-05:002006-03-06T23:49:00.000-05:00I don't see these statements as any worse or diffe...I don't see these statements as any worse or different that the recent "Vote Torah" campaign - he is saying that voting for Shas supports Torah institutions. So?<BR/><BR/>I have a lot of issues with many statements of ROY, but this one's pareve.lamedzayinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17190186129228766692noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141645224653476262006-03-06T06:40:00.000-05:002006-03-06T06:40:00.000-05:00Tzvee:In terms of (1), we are in agreement. In ter...Tzvee:<BR/>In terms of (1), we are in agreement. In terms of (2), we are also in agreement. The question is whether what Rabbi Ovadia Yosef intended to use "rabbinic ideas to motivate to gullible." If R' Ovadia beleives that Shas is doing something good; and that the people who enable the doing of this good will be getting merit; and then telling them this truth will encourage them to act on it, then it is not an attempt to "motivate the gullible."<BR/><BR/>Shmarya:<BR/>I am perfectly capable of following the lines of reasoning in conspiracy theories. That does not make them more believable. I beleive I have already answered your points. It is pointless to argue with you, and will just be a further drain of my time, and so I am going to follow the advice of <A HREF="http://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt2826.htm#4" REL="nofollow">Mishlei 26:5.</A>joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958375916391742462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141629979253049012006-03-06T02:26:00.000-05:002006-03-06T02:26:00.000-05:00Okay, Josh, try to process:1. The amulets ROY so d...Okay, Josh, try to process:<BR/><BR/>1. The amulets ROY so distained won the election, and brought Shas many extra seats.<BR/><BR/>2. The party is down in the polls less than a month before an election.<BR/><BR/>3. The amulet writer is no more.<BR/><BR/>4. ROY is desperate.<BR/><BR/>5. Therefore, Vote Shas, Get Olam HaBa.<BR/><BR/>You can't follow this line of reasoning? Perhaps that is because you are so hell-bent on "protecting" Orthodoxy from "attack." If you actually focused on the truth, things would be much clearer to you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141574361404102582006-03-05T10:59:00.000-05:002006-03-05T10:59:00.000-05:001. I agree that it is correct to compare Rabbi Ova...1. I agree that it is correct to compare Rabbi Ovadia Yosef and Rabbi Yochanan. And further what ROY said is in step with classical rabbinic Judaism.<BR/><BR/>2. IMHO using traditional rabbinic ideas to manipulate the gullible into voting for the questionable is reprehensible.Tzvee Zahavyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15833902273722124103noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141560008139582812006-03-05T07:00:00.000-05:002006-03-05T07:00:00.000-05:00frankly, Shmarya, based on your track record, i do...frankly, Shmarya, based on your track record, i do not take any such assessment seriously.<BR/><BR/>do you still think (among many other wacky things) that the entire copepod issue was a conspiracy by rabbis to collect money for offering hechsherim on water? I will do you a favor and invite readers of this blog to check out your blog, to get a sense of what your general approach is.<BR/><BR/>i do not doubt that may be largely an effort to persuade people to vote for Shas. even with my explantion, it is an effort to do so - by explaining to them that they thus have a share in the mitzvah, which gives merit. But to think that it therefore is exactly equal to a statement - pull the level for Shas and you will automatically get into heaven - well, that is not the same. <BR/><BR/>That there was some event involving Shas (and not R' Yosef) handing out amulets does not implicate R' Ovadia Yosef and lead one to interpret ANY other action in exactly the same light. Whether handing out amulets should or should not constitute bribery, making a speech that one gets merit does not mean that he is offering a Get-Into-Heaven-Free card. And the *simplest* explanation of R' Yosef's words is *exactly* as I specified.<BR/><BR/>Imagine he had said "Hello," and someone had interpreted his words and yelled, "He threatened Hell to anyone who did not vote for Shas!" An explanation of his words and what they actually mean is not weak apologetics, strong apologetics, or any apologetics at all. It is simply a tactic that you like to use, to label any statement that X is not a scandal as apologetics.<BR/><BR/>Here is article in HaAretz, which by no means is flattering to Shas.<BR/><BR/>http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/pages/ShArtElection.jhtml?itemNo=250932&contrassID=28&subContrassID=3&sbSubContrassID=0<BR/><BR/>and here is a quote from the article:<BR/><BR/>"In the 1996 elections, Rabbi Yosef watched sadly as masses of people voted for Shas because of the charms and amulets dispensed by followers of the aged kabbalist Rabbi Yitzhak Kaddouri, for whom Rabbi Yosef has only disdain."<BR/><BR/>Without endorsing any negative portrayal of R' Kaddouri, if R' Yosef disliked the passing out of amulets to get votes, why assume that his speech, made to convince people to vote for Shas, is exactly of a kind with the amulet incident, and that he is promising automatic entry into heaven?<BR/><BR/>but I've wasted enough breath. I know there will be no convincing you.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958375916391742462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141548734080051602006-03-05T03:52:00.000-05:002006-03-05T03:52:00.000-05:00"what i presented appears to ME at least as the mo...<I>"what i presented appears to ME at least as the most likely meaning of R' Yosef's words."</I><BR/><BR/>I don't doubt that. It's still very weak apologetics.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141506849084248902006-03-04T16:14:00.000-05:002006-03-04T16:14:00.000-05:00The Supreme Court case about the amulets was one o...The Supreme Court case about the amulets was one of the worst decisions handed down in Israeli legal history. Yes, it is illegal to buy votes with presents, money and even non-financial benefits. But amulets, please. Another example of judges legislating from the bench.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141418770958377732006-03-03T15:46:00.000-05:002006-03-03T15:46:00.000-05:00"weak apologetics, at best"so what is it at worst?..."weak apologetics, at best"<BR/>so what is it at worst?<BR/><BR/>not everything is a scandal, and not every rational explanation of someone's words that makes clear that they are NOT the basis for a scandal is apologetics.<BR/><BR/>what i presented appears to ME at least as the most likely meaning of R' Yosef's words.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958375916391742462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141416809133152082006-03-03T15:13:00.000-05:002006-03-03T15:13:00.000-05:00Weak apologetics, at best. Remember Shas's and the...Weak apologetics, at best. Remember Shas's and the amulets during the last elections? And then the Supreme Court ruled that to be illegal. Plus, the amulet writer, Rav Kaduri, ztz'l, passed away. This is as close as Shas can legally get to buying votes with amulets.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141407021025895622006-03-03T12:30:00.000-05:002006-03-03T12:30:00.000-05:00perhaps you would count yourself as one such. but ...perhaps you would count yourself as one such. but i don't think that orthomom would count herself as one such.<BR/><BR/>there are many "critical" ways of reading Rabbi Yochanan's statement besides the obvious cynical one. In this statement, he expands the canopy of Divine favor (in the next world) past only those who have the ability and drive to actually learn Torah, to other well intentioned folk who recognize its value and to their best to support it. it can be read as a fairly liberal statement. this reading is by no means an "uncritical" reading.<BR/><BR/>and the pasuk about giving a judge a bribe does not necessarily contradict such an expansive statement about how Hashem treats well intentioned people who support his works. It is not a contradiction between Oral and Written Torah. But if you wish, I can say in a humorous and cynical vein that in fact it reinforces the Torah's statement, in that Hashem, who is Wise, is being influenced by a bribe.<BR/><BR/>"But we all know that the Oral Torah trumps the Written Torah"<BR/>The Oral Torah interprets the written Torah. Rabbi Yochanan interprets a pasuk in Kohelet.<BR/><BR/>as to your "lesser extent" argument, that this is a promise of goodies in exchange for a vote, as <B>*opposed*</B> to <BR/>"vote for us and we'll do the right thing," Rav Ovadia Yosef is saying: "Look, with political power we will <B>do</B> the right thing, and you will have a share in doing the right thing, and thus you will be rewarded for doing the right thing in the next world."<BR/><BR/>Note that this post, and this comment, is not an endorsement of Shas as a political party, but rather of trying to understand nuance.<BR/><BR/>I forgot to post this in the original post, but this situation is actually similar to the Vote Torah! campaign that was promoted recently on several blogs.<BR/><BR/>all the best.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958375916391742462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141406750225989032006-03-03T12:25:00.000-05:002006-03-03T12:25:00.000-05:00Anonymous - I assume you don't live in Israel, bec...Anonymous - I assume you don't live in Israel, because it has nothing to do with goodies.<BR/><BR/>All the parties say "vote for us to support our lifestyle". So when it's Shinui, it's de-fund anything Torah and fund theaters and the arts, when it's Shas it's de-fund secular culture and fund Torah society supporting institutions.<BR/><BR/>The problem is there's no compromise, nobody is "doing the right thing". Would you like all Mikvaot shut down because Meretz wins? Conversely all theaters shut down if Shas wins?<BR/><BR/>In the past it has balanced out with coalitions that are somewhat mixed. The last 4 years this has not been the case, with heavy secular coaltions having very limited religious partners. Torah is being starved out.Akivahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042484533217272945noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1141404353407555012006-03-03T11:45:00.000-05:002006-03-03T11:45:00.000-05:00But I would think that many of the people who woul...<I>But I would think that many of the people who would attack R Yosef for this statement, had they lived in the days of the first generation of Amoraim, would also attack Rabbi Yochanan for his statement.</I><BR/>Count me as one such. A statement by a Rabbi that Hashem treats favorably one who treats Rabbis favorably is too tinged with self interest for me to accept uncritically. What was that about bribes 'blinding the eyes of the wise' again? But we all know that the Oral Torah trumps the Written Torah, so obviously the Amorah is correct.<BR/><BR/>To a lesser extent, saying 'vote for Shas because they'll give you more goodies' (Torah institutions, mikvaot, chelek in Olam Habah) makes Shas the same as from Shinui (vote for us and we'll open the stores on Shabbat), or any other political party that says 'vote for us and we'll give you stuff' rather than 'vote for us and we'll do the right thing'.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com