tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post8546644870882598347..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Rav Yonasan Eibeshutz's Rocket Shipjoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-52373578272010466422016-10-05T04:01:35.937-04:002016-10-05T04:01:35.937-04:00Berit Menuha
הדרך העשירית
הדרך הי' היא דרך מב...Berit Menuha<br /><br />הדרך העשירית<br />הדרך הי' היא דרך מבוא המגדל. הם הפעולות החזקות והמגינות לאדם כמו המגדל ובהם פעולות אסורות ופעולות מותרות. כי כל פעולה שהיא נעשית בקטורת היא אסורה, והאחרות מותרות. וענין אוב וידעוני ובקצת הכחות השדים לא יוכל להיות בלי קטורת. ודור הפלגה כולם היו חכמים מחוכמים יודעים הסודות על אמתתם ואמרו כך אם אנחנו חוטאים נמות כמו דור המבול אבל מה נעשה נמלא תאותינו בעה"ז ונסדר כחות ועניינים שהעליונים לא יוכלו להלחם עמנו היו רוצים לעשות מגדל בנויה לשעות שמרוב מים לא יפול ואש לא ימשול בה ושיתפשטו ממנה כלי מלחמה שיהרגו למי שיקרוב להרוס אותם והיו רוצים לשום בה צלם עשוי בכח שם כמ"ש ונעשה לנו שם (בראשית י"א ד') והצלם ההוא שידבר אליהם כל אשר יהיה ושיאמר להם זה עשו וזה אשר לא תעשו והצלם ההוא רצו לעשות לו כנפים שיכסו על כל עיר ההוא ואפי' אש שיורד מן השמים ומטר שלא יפול בעיר ובגבולה ומלאכי המשחית שלא ימשלו בהם וכל מה שהיו עושים מפני יראת המבול היו עושים, והשוטים לא היו יודעים כי אל דעות יהו"ה ולו נתכנו עלילות ושהשרף שכל השדים וכל הכחות מקבלים ממנו הוא ברשותו, מה עשה הקב"ה רם ונשא המעיט גבורתו של חפניאל ושל סנדלפו"ן והתחיל לשפוט בשני השרפים האלו ונסתם מקורם אז תשש כח הטומאה ולא יכלו לבנות הבנין שהיו רוצים לעשות. ובראות החכמים שכחות הטומאה מתגברים יותר מן כחות הטהרה אמרו גדולה כח הטומאה שמכחשת פמליא של מעלה (נ"ל מבטל כח המשמרות מפני עבודת פעולותיו):www.thenutgarden.wordpress.comhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01941575755686521576noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-41448091374624846792012-03-30T20:56:58.630-04:002012-03-30T20:56:58.630-04:00Hm, he was kabbalist, so he knew what he was writt...Hm, he was kabbalist, so he knew what he was writting. Why he choose not Mars, Venus, Jupiter, but Moon? His spaceship reminds from India mythology vimanas. All modern science evolved from kabbalah.SPACEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05422724355730756799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-91034595003393506232012-03-20T23:37:30.009-04:002012-03-20T23:37:30.009-04:00I don't think we need to take everything that ...I don't think we need to take everything that Rav Yonasan Eibeshitz said here to be accurate. Certainly there is much he wrote here that we know to be scientifically untrue.<br /><br />However, yes, absolutely. A place for settlement means that someone can land there, such that it is solid. I don't think he realized about atmosphere and its absence on the moon.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-80077847685075901172012-03-20T21:59:52.808-04:002012-03-20T21:59:52.808-04:00What about this Moon settlement? cite: "Howev...What about this Moon settlement? cite: "However, it is known that in the sphere of the Moon there is also a place for settlement just as on the sphere of the Earth." Does it exist now?SPACEhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05422724355730756799noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-59215069649541734102010-12-12T02:45:00.902-05:002010-12-12T02:45:00.902-05:00thanks! very good idea.thanks! very good idea.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-41978406999585534192010-12-12T00:44:41.109-05:002010-12-12T00:44:41.109-05:00Great post!
I recommend you include the words &quo...Great post!<br />I recommend you include the words "launching pad" somewhere in the article so that people will more likely find the article by Googling on "tower of babel launching pad".Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-66602349121515978942010-10-06T22:08:38.207-04:002010-10-06T22:08:38.207-04:00More intriguing description of migdal Bovel is pro...More intriguing description of migdal Bovel is provided in Bris Menucho. It mentions, that migdal Bovel had projectile weapons, which coluld destroy anyone approaching, plus it had some structure (sheym, i.e. idol) with "wings" which could cover and protect the city from fire falling from heavens (plus it predicted future). Reminds some sci fi description of a structure with power field and rockets, controlled by central computer :)Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-25851562465980092582010-10-06T15:52:16.528-04:002010-10-06T15:52:16.528-04:00right. i agree with this last comment of yours 100...right. i agree with this last comment of yours 100%.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-481066290905913862010-10-06T15:50:26.207-04:002010-10-06T15:50:26.207-04:00Don't forget, Reb Yoynoson was judging from pe...Don't forget, Reb Yoynoson was judging from perspective of his day science, but he was obviously interested in science fiction ideas too. It might be somewhat off from the real physical model, but it's the idea that matters.Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-61254415858230634182010-10-06T15:31:50.146-04:002010-10-06T15:31:50.146-04:00Marveling science, RYE. You get tenure :)Marveling science, RYE. You get tenure :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-45570677273488215152010-10-06T15:21:26.068-04:002010-10-06T15:21:26.068-04:00Matter and energy is a tricky issue. One can say, ...Matter and energy is a tricky issue. One can say, that absolute vacuum is an illusion - there is light there, or some other energy, so it is already not empty. As I said, winds can refer to "proto matter" which has nothing to do with air. Also think about solar sail ;) It can the solar wind to move the space ship. So the idea is not really too bizarre.Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-27519090271925016352010-10-06T15:17:05.950-04:002010-10-06T15:17:05.950-04:00"Propulsion (reactive) engine doesn't nec...<i>"Propulsion (reactive) engine doesn't necessarily require any explosion - water jets use propulsion for moving. In space, any kind of propulsion will move spacecraft forward."</i><br /><br />right, but he doesn't mention propulsion at all. rather, he explicitly attributes the motion to the mighty blownig of the wind. to cite my own rough translation of Rav Yonasan Eibeshitz's words, "And if so, if it is possible to bring all the flying vessels above this thick air, it is possible to travel in the wind up and up, until the sphere of the Moon, for the wind would continually lift it up to travel, and above, the wind moves mightily."<br /><br /><i>So imagining vacuum is not far fetched.</i><br />Not far-fetched. But he *might* explicitly state otherwise. (unless I translated it incorrectly, which in this particular instance might well be true.) to once again cite my own rough translation, " For it is not possible that from the earth to the heavens is emptiness and a vacuum, and it is not within the realm of the understanding of a scholar to understand that they are so empty to such an extent that there is no matter there. And if so, perforce there must be winds, and the winds which are close to the earth are thicker and coarser, while the winds which are closer to the heavens are lighter and purer and better."<br /><br />add to that his seeming assumption that the mighty winds would be blowing (continuously) all the way to the moon, and it would appear that he agrees that there is no vacuum...<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-22582062667021589832010-10-06T15:08:52.368-04:002010-10-06T15:08:52.368-04:00Propulsion (reactive) engine doesn't necessari...Propulsion (reactive) engine doesn't necessarily require any explosion - water jets use propulsion for moving. In space, any kind of propulsion will move spacecraft forward.<br /><br />I don't think it's obvious what Reb Yoynoson meant by the wind here. Cyrano in his book writes, that there is "attraction" which pulls objects to the Moon. This is obviously a gravity-like idea. "Wind" in space could also mean some proto-matter which fills the space, discussed by Plato and etc, who also speak about similar things in regards to the Moon. So there I wouldn't say for sure whether Reb Yoynoson thought there is vacuum in modern perception in space or not. But he himself writes, that the farther one goes from the Earth - the "thinner" (i.e. less dense) atmosphere becomes. So imagining vacuum is not far fetched.Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-42837876364240277422010-10-06T14:55:48.886-04:002010-10-06T14:55:48.886-04:00thanks. i'll check out your post.
all the bes...thanks. i'll check out your post.<br /><br />all the best,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-55133519066635384272010-10-06T14:49:50.910-04:002010-10-06T14:49:50.910-04:00i'm not really suggesting otherwise. wait for ...i'm not really suggesting otherwise. wait for my second post on the matter.<br /><br />but he is not saying that there is an explosive element. he clearly makes it that wind is continually moving it, not that you start it moving and that objects in motion will continue to move. i don't see how to read it as an engine. and it seems (if i read him correctly) than he disagrees with the idea of the vacuum of space.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-27270654543775318602010-10-06T14:46:56.466-04:002010-10-06T14:46:56.466-04:00Joel: I wrote an article on this subject with diff...Joel: I wrote an article on this subject with different sources. <a href="http://bahaltener.livejournal.com/39875.html" rel="nofollow">You can read it here</a> (try using Google translate to read it in English).<br /><br />In short, the fact that migdal Bovel was a flying tower is mentioned in Rashi on Chagigo (15b) and for example in Seyfer Tziyuni. See other sources there for a lot of different interesting details.Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-37620693328960292092010-10-06T14:43:27.308-04:002010-10-06T14:43:27.308-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-57024678126115105882010-10-06T14:43:01.792-04:002010-10-06T14:43:01.792-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-6579181393408963162010-10-06T14:42:35.103-04:002010-10-06T14:42:35.103-04:00In Reb Yonoson's perception it was a space shi...In Reb Yonoson's perception it was a space ship, not just an air ship. A craft built with aerodynamic technology (מלאכת עפיפה) doesn't necessarily use sails - rather I'll imagine wings (think of modern shuttles). When it leaves Earth influence - it can progress to the Moon, using the "wind".<br /><br />Now think about what is said, and what Reb Yoynoson meant. He saw the works of Newton who mentions (in theory though) the subject of shooting the cannon ball into the space, overcoming Earth gravitation. Reb Yoynoson also probably saw the science fiction work of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyrano_de_Bergerac" rel="nofollow">Cyrano de Bergerac</a> regarding <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=OdlHAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cyrano+de+bergerac+voyage+moon&source=bl&ots=5R0H6BSBAu&sig=l90RrIlNHUWGnmzPWlBeJE-ec0E&hl=en&ei=zr-sTJ_iIIGclge90tn6Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&sqi=2&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q&f=false" rel="nofollow">the voyage to the Moon</a> (most probably Reb Yoynoson refers to it when he writes: "וכבר חיברו בזה חיבורים איך לעשות<br />ספינה כזה לילך לכדור ירחי").<br /><br />Anyhow, by atmospheric influence he meant the cumulative influence of atmosphere and gravity, which a space craft needs to overcome in order to leave the planet.<br /><br />"Wind" in space is a more interesting thing. It's not clear what he meant by it, and it's open to interpretation. One guess would be, that he anticipated <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_engine" rel="nofollow">reaction engine</a>, which uses propulsion of matter to drive the ship forward (thus it is a "wind" flying backward). Another guess could be that he really meant that there is some force (gravity-like) which pushes the ship to the Moon. It might be based on Plato's model.<br /><br />But whatever he meant - he obviously was familiar with scientific as well as sci fi ideas of that time, and envisioned a craft capable flying in space.<br /><br />-- Bahaltener.Shmerlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14404784573198104036noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-27367259645236545792010-10-06T12:58:39.089-04:002010-10-06T12:58:39.089-04:00i can't seem to find this in Yalkut Reuveini. ...i can't seem to find this in Yalkut Reuveini. can you point me to it? here is a direct link to where I think it should be:<br /><br />http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/books/djvu/1845302/index.djvu?djvuopts&thumbnails=yes&zoom=page&page=32<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-19809193112100436492010-10-06T12:05:52.752-04:002010-10-06T12:05:52.752-04:00i'll try to check it out. but yalkut reuveni i...i'll try to check it out. but yalkut reuveni is a yalkut, which means that he may have taken it directly from rav yonasan eibeshitz. (i'll check the text and the dates, bli neder.)<br /><br />in terms of content, your description of the Yalkut Reuveni appears to match that of Rav Yonasan Eibeshitz's theory. that is, the tower itself was not a rocket ship. it was a tower to reach a certain elevation. then, at the top of the tower they planned to launch a vessel. this vessel was not equipped with rockets, but was a mere flying machine. and the *winds* would take it up and up until it reached the moon. there, they could establish a new settlement, free of the fear of being drowned in another mabul.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-29528528725151271342010-10-06T09:54:59.339-04:002010-10-06T09:54:59.339-04:00I hadn’t heard about this RYE, but I have seen the...I hadn’t heard about this RYE, but I have seen the <i>Yalkut Reuveni</i> who does explicitly call say that at the top of the Tower was a vessel that would fly into the sky.J. C. Salomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499605133549720090noreply@blogger.com