tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post8012611536848618506..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Sockpuppets defending the Rebbejoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-5808752423391367702010-07-22T20:29:16.241-04:002010-07-22T20:29:16.241-04:00sorry, but i would disagree.
i don't find the...sorry, but i would disagree.<br /><br />i don't find the conduct of H&F, or rather, whichever one of them it was, at all egregious. they engaged intelligently in discussion of the points of the books and the points raised by commenters. that is, they participated normally in the conversation, taking the side they believed in of course, but this was normal discourse. they (or he) wanted to do this anonymously, and so posted as Anonymous (or guest), changing minor details in phrasing things so as to not reveal his identity. i don't see anything *really* wrong with that -- nothing "unprofessional", and nothing that would "call their entire methodology into question."<br /><br />what nachum/menny/guest/shaya r did, on the other hand, was extremely egregious. it was deliberate impersonation to create fake conversations. would you agree that this was more egregious?<br /><br />meanwhile, a few of those commenting on the seforim blog are posting under Guest or pseudonyms with absolutely ZERO history. this strikes me as almost as suspicious, in context. they didn't join the conversation until now? or rather, were they the sockpuppets of before, who now have learned to clear their cookies before creating new personalities?<br /><br />(This doesn't mean, BTW, that I endorse or dismiss the claims in H&F's book. I don't know enough about this to say anything meaningful.)<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-46091640333722953132010-07-22T14:29:08.834-04:002010-07-22T14:29:08.834-04:00Firstly, the 96 comment guy actually wrote anti-Ra...Firstly, the 96 comment guy actually wrote anti-Rapoport comments too, which suggests that he's possibly merely deranged.<br /><br />Secondly, an argument could be made that H&F fit the bill of a sock puppet (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sockpuppet_(Internet)" rel="nofollow">as defined by wikipedia</a>) more accurately, for they were actually discussing <b>themselves</b> while pretending to be a third party. Certainly one sees here "the pretense that the puppet is a third party who is not affiliated with the puppeteer or acting under their control for their benefit". [And btw, one doesn't necessarily, automatically, assume that all pro-H&F comments by "guest" are being authored by the same person; moreover, the notorious examples mentioned in wikipedia did not involve authors using <i>multiple</i> pseudonyms]. Whereas the 96 comment guy probably isn't anyone of particular note, and resembles more closely a troll.<br /><br />But isn't this already splitting hairs?<br /><br />re "bizarre", I think the פשט in this is that (prob.) Heilman made that assertion because he knew it to be true. But he couldn't state that as fact, because that would expose "guest" as a sock puppet. So instead he opted for a "maybe" which in hindsight sounds bizarre.<br /><br />All in all, I think this exposes H&F's unprofessional approach and calls their entire methodology into question, in my view.Outragednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-14491160031947268222010-07-22T12:14:51.657-04:002010-07-22T12:14:51.657-04:00consensus with the book, sure. but consensus with ...consensus with the book, sure. but consensus with various other active commenters in the thread, no. only one person, Guest. whichever one of these this was should really have chosen a pseudonym, though.<br /><br />re. "bizarre", unless of course this original Guest was some student associated with Heilman, posting that initial post on his behalf. or if different chapters were written up by different of them, such that he was unsure what was in the book...joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-88809656533744773992010-07-22T11:38:04.603-04:002010-07-22T11:38:04.603-04:00Not a false consensus?
"Looks to me like the...Not a false consensus?<br /><br />"<b>Looks to me</b> like the other book [by Mintz] says the Rebbe talked about Entebbe a lot"<br /><br />"<b>I was there</b> and there are no curtains or mechitzas on the path next to the women's section, opposite the entrance to the ohel"<br /><br />"Did MMs ever show up at that shul? Anyway, <b>I think</b> they said he did not show up at the shuls in the pletzel"<br /><br />"<b>Looks to me</b> like he is talking about his dreams for a job in his field. Not about fantasies"<br /><br />"I think you missed their point Jew from Florida. They did not say the book was aimed for people who read the Rebbe's writings. They said they thought their book would cause more people to read them, reliable or not."<br /><br />Lying to a fellow professor: "Prof Kaplan. I read the book and I see on p. 128 they write that Levi Yitzchak added that "G-d may remember you with a son, with a 'seed both healthy and vital'" I think they understood it was key. They didn't get this from Rapoport"<br /><br />bizarre: "Friedman was not the only author. Maybe Heilman persuaded him he was wrong."<br /><br />"<b>I looked in the book</b>. Pretty clear that CR got it wrong. It was the sheva brachot" <br /><br />"Even his father knew MMS wanted to take of his sirtuk. <b>I think the book talks about this</b>."<br /><br />"I think Friedman and Heilman are clear. Schneerson was never seen at that synagogue. Was it even Orthodox?"<br /><br />etc. etc.Outragednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-65917047571994847572010-07-22T07:21:18.015-04:002010-07-22T07:21:18.015-04:00i'm not certain about IP address, but I've...i'm not certain about IP address, but I've posted under "josh waxman" and "josh waxman" before establishing an account, and it managed to track it. it could be it was just using cookies on the particular computer, rather than the IP address for someone who has not set up an account.<br /><br />"is that Heilman & Friedman also wrote 41 sock puppet comments"<br />it is not really the same level, though. Guest just means an anonymous comment, and that means that they are participating in the conversation without exposing themselves as the authors of the book. that second comment was a bit misleading i suppose. but it is not like they are making up multiple personalities to create an impression of consensus, just participating anonymously in the conversation. if they want to preserve that anonymity while participating in the conversation, then they would be forced to refer to themselves in third person.<br /><br /><a href="http://ishimshitos.blogspot.com/2010/07/and-these-are-scholars.html" rel="nofollow">Ishim veShitos</a> doesn't think much of this. indeed, they could have been more forthcoming. but commenting anonymously, and consistently as anonymous, does not seem to me to be anywhere as bad as creating a false sense of consensus by creating multiple pseudonyms to agree with each other, and to impersonate regulars.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-4421424183971637102010-07-22T01:27:24.963-04:002010-07-22T01:27:24.963-04:00Well, looking at "View details" for this...<i>Well, looking at "View details" for this "nachum", we discover all his posts, by account <b>*or IP address.</b></i><br />----------------------------------<br /><b>*</b>emphasis mine<br /><br />I know I'm getting technical here, and I haven't confirmed the correctness of it, but I don't think one can easily, through the Echo commenting system see all comments from the same IP.<br /><br />First, the idea of profiles is so that people can sign in from different IPs( like home, work, Internet cafes) and post comments as the same person.<br /><br />Second, to show usage by IP address can be confusing, because many IP addresses are used by more than one person ( at home, work, school, cafes)<br /><br />Third, the only system I know of who publicly tracks submissions through IP address is Wikipedia, and they do so only for edits submitted anonymously, and, even if a profile is used from that IP, those edits don't get added to the profile's edits.<br /><br />Also, I can think of two ways to avoid being found out as easily as you found Menny out, though I don't have the where or why to test them out. This case is more a testament to Menny's lack of ability( or lack of will) to conceal his true identity, that to the ease of finding him out through the Echo commenting system.<br /><br />As an aside, you could have used a more direct link to the part of the comment section you refer to:<br /><a href="http://js-kit.com/api/static/pop_comments?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fseforim.blogspot.com%2F&path=%2F6767655535801324235#jsid-1279550356-34" rel="nofollow">http://js-kit.com/api/static/pop_comments?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fseforim.blogspot.com%2F&path=%2F6767655535801324235#jsid-1279550356-34</a>Tommyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07110984901774311950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-42411537007218900462010-07-21T22:38:54.095-04:002010-07-21T22:38:54.095-04:00What you didn't realize Josh, is that Heilman ...What you <i>didn't</i> realize Josh, is that Heilman & Friedman also wrote 41 sock puppet comments!<br /><br />Needless to say that this is completely unprofessional and should deservedly land them in a heap of trouble.<br /><br />Click on the "guest" of the second comment who wrote: "I think the Blog was the one who decided to limit posting on this", and you'll see that it's the same account which originally wrote the comment "Since this blog has not been either able or willing to post our final response to Chaim Rapoport's latest posting..." signed "Samuel Heilman & Menachem Friedman"!!!<br /><br />The plot thickens!Outragednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-31743582378286291782010-07-21T21:27:35.730-04:002010-07-21T21:27:35.730-04:00I think these people are just losers and need to m...I think these people are just losers and need to make themselves feel better. Who would do this unless they have zero confidence in themselves and their own opinions.E-Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06327848648278849664noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-3099911239309622842010-07-21T20:11:23.175-04:002010-07-21T20:11:23.175-04:00Wow...! There is one guy who wrote 96 comments und...Wow...! There is one guy who wrote 96 comments under 20 different names. This is outrageous!Outragednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-68939912346277238762010-07-21T20:03:08.707-04:002010-07-21T20:03:08.707-04:00"how is that not genevas daas?"
not sure..."how is that not genevas daas?"<br />not sure. it probably is.<br /><br />"You shouldn't be giving away all our tricks"<br />:)joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-88160808689134184082010-07-21T19:44:20.950-04:002010-07-21T19:44:20.950-04:00You shouldn't be giving away all our tricks......You shouldn't be giving away all our tricks... :)E. Finkhttp://finkorswim.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-87261504249319704082010-07-21T19:20:07.733-04:002010-07-21T19:20:07.733-04:00meir says
when it comes to defending your 'reb...meir says<br />when it comes to defending your 'rebbe' no holds are barred.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-47271819471614676792010-07-21T17:10:09.307-04:002010-07-21T17:10:09.307-04:00When somebody says "we multiple individuals r...When somebody says "we multiple individuals run a blog" and it's only one person or "I think John Doe [who is really said individual] is right," how is that not genevas daas?Baruch Peltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178212221463356386noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-19236095278112281492010-07-21T17:07:21.944-04:002010-07-21T17:07:21.944-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Baruch Peltahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13178212221463356386noreply@blogger.com