tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post7995052542485639886..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Rav Schachter's missive, and the responsejoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-37401583737856306092014-02-14T09:26:46.733-05:002014-02-14T09:26:46.733-05:00re bar ilan, i think there are at two points in pl...re bar ilan, i think there are at two points in play here.<br /><br />the first is that it gives access to obscure sources. the second is that someone unfamiliar with the sugyot could do a narrow search and not realize orthogonal aspects.<br /><br />i was suggesting that even someone who was unfamiliar with the sugya might well have encountered this via a bar ilan search.<br /><br />(not that i know. i don't think i currently have such access to run a search.)<br /><br />re deracheha darchei noam, i think that lakol zeman, ve'es lechol chefetz tachas hashamayim. i think that this was intended for internal consumption only, not meant to be posted (and mis-analyzed) on blogs, translated on yeshiva world news, and read by the general public who are unfamiliar with halachic methodology or the sociological stakes.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-67959584101344551712014-02-14T07:37:27.211-05:002014-02-14T07:37:27.211-05:00Josh,
I agree with your points. But FYI - the shi...Josh, <br />I agree with your points. But FYI - the shiltei giborim is quite well known - and a thorough look at the sugya in Rosh Hahshana (one of the key women and mitzvot sugyot as you are well aware) would turn it up. So no need for Bar Ilan there. In fact, as R' Aryeh Klapper just pointed out in his recent post on the issue, he cited the Shiltei Giborim in a letter to Hamevaser on the issue over twenty years ago. (By the way - it is worthwhile taking a look at R' Klapper's discussion of the issue in his response to Ethan Tucker). Regarding your last point, I agree that there is a problem of lack of consultation with Gedolei Torah, and consideration of all facets of the issue by those who wish to be lenient or accomodating. But I am not convinced that this is really a causal factor in the harshness of Rav Schacter's response. Perhaps there would be a way to make his fundamental points that conforms more to the parameters of "deracheha darchei noam"<br /><br />Kol Tuv,<br />Shabbat ShalomChanoch Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16057033500976609595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-45069198839164838132014-02-13T20:56:47.745-05:002014-02-13T20:56:47.745-05:00Chanoch:
Indeed, I wouldn't say that this is n...Chanoch:<br />Indeed, I wouldn't say that this is necessarily a new "kind" of argument. Hey, I am no great expert but <a href="parsha.blogspot.com/2014/01/some-thoughts-on-women-wearing-tefillin.html" rel="nofollow">I spotted a similar concern myself</a>. Someone with a Bar Ilan search could have even found it in Shiltei Giborim to Rosh Hashana. (That women are prohibited from wearing tefillin "because their doing so might appear to be the way of non-believers, who disregard Rabbinic directives and refuse to follow Rabbinic interpretations of Scripture."<br /><br />But it is the **type** of thing that someone relying on shallow and narrow research might well miss. (Which was a different point.)<br /><br />And I also agree (at least on my own behalf) that it doesn't grant it or its advocate absolute power. Had the people involved consulted with bigger rabbis who bothered to consider it and then decided otherwise for various reasons, perhaps Rav Schachter would have written a different letter.<br /><br />I'll pass along the regards.<br /><br />kul tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-24429947224495258372014-02-13T20:36:12.979-05:002014-02-13T20:36:12.979-05:00Josh - I certainly understand your point about the...Josh - I certainly understand your point about the possibility of encyclopedic knowledge bordering on the total generating some unique halachic argument, of a "different kind" than that available to he who merely precedes by means of "research", the known literature, Bar Ilan etc. However that said, two points are in order. First, it does not seem to me that the argument of "gezeirah mishum minut" or "yehareg ve'al yaavor" due to improper motivation or our being engaged in an ongoing war for belief in Torah min-Hashamayim and the like seems like a new "kind" of argument. Second, the formulation of such an argument does not grant it or its advocate absolute power. It is but another consideration, admittedly powerful in my opinion, to be weighed in arriving at a proper conclusion. Regards to your father. Your cousinChanoch Waxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16057033500976609595noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-705937731177013152014-02-13T12:07:52.829-05:002014-02-13T12:07:52.829-05:00There are other characteristics - besides complete...There are other characteristics - besides complete familiarity with the sources - that make one a good posek. Vehmayvin yavin.<br />--AnonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-42714875177250965742014-02-12T23:04:44.777-05:002014-02-12T23:04:44.777-05:005) Schools ______ let women wear tefillin at a wom...5) Schools ______ let women wear tefillin at a woman's tefillah group.Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05760733574758883958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-73604378472268843232014-02-12T21:19:03.409-05:002014-02-12T21:19:03.409-05:00We're talking about a single question, but I t...We're talking about a single question, but I think there's really a cloud of related questions. It would be quite possible to assert that women may wear tefilin, but still conclude that they should be discouraged from doing so, and that schools should forbid it on their premises. <br /><br />Assuming that at least <b>some</b> women may, halachically, wear tefilin under at least <b>some</b> circumstances, each of the folowing statements could be completed with "must", "must not", "should", "should not", or "may":<br /><br />1) Women, generally, ____ wear tefilin.<br />2) Women ____ be encouraged to wear tefilin.<br />3) Schools and synagogues ____ let women wear tefilin on their premises.<br />4) Schools and synagogues ____ let women wear tefilin <b>publicly</b> on their premises.<br />Joe in Australianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-84708178511485480852014-02-12T11:50:00.219-05:002014-02-12T11:50:00.219-05:00It is not wearing tefillin that is deemed yeiharei...It is not wearing tefillin that is deemed yeihareig ve'al ya'avor. It is the context, the willingness to dilute the halachic process, that RHS is really addressing. Much like the lengths we go on parah adumah to preserve the tradition against Sadducee challenges. If she were wearing tefillin for another motiver, or in another context, he wouldn't have branded it that way.<br /><br />IOW, it's not simply frustrating how meta the conversation is. It's the fact that the problem isn't with how the other is doing one din, but how the other's process works altogether that threatens to make this a schism-generating issue.micha bergerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11612144735431285113noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-3142173340331297932014-02-11T15:42:05.568-05:002014-02-11T15:42:05.568-05:00R' Waxman,
It's a little difficult not be ...R' Waxman,<br />It's a little difficult not be both amused and frustrated by how "meta" this whole situation is. Essentially, there are differing opinions, not simply about the actual p'sak, but about who has the right to render a p'sak in the first place.<br /><br />R' Yuter and R' Schachter simply have fundamentally different approaches to that question, with R' Schachter essentially saying (as I understand it) that R' Yuter (and, for that matter, R' Harcsztark and R' Lookstein) do not have the right to pasken, at least not in a complex/significant issue such as this. The other Rabbis obviously disagree.<br /><br />The end result is that ignorant laymen such as myself have to choose which system/authority to follow, even though by all accounts were are in the worst position to make such a decision!<br /><br />I'm not a computer guy, but I'm fairly certain that's a pretty good example of a catastrophic systems failure.<br /><br />If you have any thoughts on this conundrum I'd love to hear them.<br />KT,<br />HillelHillelhttp://frozentorah.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-687238267249879582014-02-11T15:12:41.184-05:002014-02-11T15:12:41.184-05:00If someone needs a translation so that he can bett...If someone needs a translation so that he can better understand the issues, well, that makes sense. If someone needs a translation so that he can make up his mind what the halacha is, then he probably shouldn't be paskening for himself. If I can't understand the Tax Court's decision, I'm not going to file my tax return on the basis of my personal opinion about tax law.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15705082828240609272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-77381969836549109332014-02-11T14:45:47.321-05:002014-02-11T14:45:47.321-05:00Translation of Rabbi Schachter's Teshuva:
Her...Translation of Rabbi Schachter's Teshuva:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/213379/women-in-tefillin-rav-hershel-shachter-slams-rabbis-permitting-women-to-wear-tefillin.html" rel="nofollow">Here - at YWN</a>yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-15665357759885578282014-02-11T08:40:21.230-05:002014-02-11T08:40:21.230-05:00Rabbi Wacman - I would answer that the tosafists w...Rabbi Wacman - I would answer that the tosafists would disagree about the amcha (and their amcha was less knowledgeable by any measures) and halakha.<br /><br />As to egalitarianism - when has any positive reforms (probably not the correct word) or changes allowing more inclusiveness for women in society or rituals have not been met with negative associations? i would include women's right to vote as well in this list. <br />How can we one read RHS psak without thinking its a polemic or an emotional attack on others he believes that have no tight to pasken?<br />I just think this lowers his acceptance in the mo community where more and more will look elsewhere because he does not reflect their haskafa....and to that degree I think its self inflicting.ruvienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-66634180904110384082014-02-11T07:10:14.198-05:002014-02-11T07:10:14.198-05:00oops, link here:
http://parsha.blogspot.com/2014/...oops, <a href="parsha.blogspot.com/2014/01/some-thoughts-on-women-wearing-tefillin.html" rel="nofollow">link here</a>:<br /><br />http://parsha.blogspot.com/2014/01/some-thoughts-on-women-wearing-tefillin.htmljoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-57536159293579313262014-02-11T07:09:30.455-05:002014-02-11T07:09:30.455-05:00ruvie:
well, i would argue that alas the amcha is ...ruvie:<br />well, i would argue that alas the amcha is only educated just enough to wrongly see this teshuva as more polemic than a pesak.<br /><br />i certainly wasn't intending it as polemic when i made a <a rel="nofollow">similar point</a> in this blogpost. That of course there is the social statement that women wearing tefillin makes (like it or not), about egalitarianism, and that historically positive actions have been discontinued when assuming "negative" associations.<br /><br />And the Conservative link -- it is not just Eden Farber. The girls in question are Conservative girls in a Modern Orthodox high school.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-25007942228625295032014-02-11T06:42:59.103-05:002014-02-11T06:42:59.103-05:00ruvie-- The sectarian argument seems to be a lefto...ruvie-- The sectarian argument seems to be a leftover from the 1940/1950 era which many wouldn't consider plausible today. <br />It reminds me of the Bat Mitzvah teshuvah's beginning in the 1920s ... where chukat hagoyim morphed into sectarianism to ain mitzvah gadolah mizeh...the amcha is educated enough to see this teshuva more as a polemic than a psak....<br /><br />FTR, Rav Schechter has been harping about rabbis paskening that do not all of shas for a while .....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-57616330658049857302014-02-11T05:52:18.446-05:002014-02-11T05:52:18.446-05:00Should read "on bechinot were in Hebrew"...Should read "on bechinot were in Hebrew"joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-45936672846629891902014-02-11T05:51:16.315-05:002014-02-11T05:51:16.315-05:00This is deflection from the point I was making, to...This is deflection from the point I was making, to try to point blame in other directions.<br /><br />possible answers is that he is comfortable writing teshuvot in Hebrew, and has done so in the past; and that other rabbis who speak English write in Hebrew. Or that the intended audience was not every yutz, many of whom don't read Hebrew, but targeted at Bnei Hayeshiva.<br /><br />you can similarly ask why all the questions we had on becoming swerve in Hebrew even though he could have written them in English.<br /><br />joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-91167952395698772742014-02-11T01:03:30.471-05:002014-02-11T01:03:30.471-05:00"he did not translate it"
Anyone have a..."he did not translate it"<br /><br />Anyone have an idea why R'HS wrote the piece in Hebrew, and why he didn't provide a version in English as well? After all, he is a native English speaker, isn't he?!Markhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05760733574758883958noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-79126547108919957812014-02-10T23:20:34.113-05:002014-02-10T23:20:34.113-05:00I also haven't **mastered** the Shas, Tur, etc...I also haven't **mastered** the Shas, Tur, etc.<br /><br />But Rav Schachter has e.g. stressed in shiur that just as English majors have read through Shakespeare, there is no excuse not to learn through all of Shas. I have my doubts that many of those opining have done that, at least.<br /><br />There is nothing "offensive" about something *reaching* yehareg va'al yaavor. (And btw I am not convinced that in a practical case, Rav Schachter would say that a woman should literally give up her life rather than wearing tefillin.) But it is as I wrote in <a href="parsha.blogspot.com/2014/01/some-thoughts-on-women-wearing-tefillin.html" rel="nofollow">this earlier post</a> that "<i>Rather, it is recognizing that historically, praiseworthy actions have been abandoned by the Jewish people in the face of outside groups co-opting it.</i>" Not following sectarian practices is a real consideration, and there is a real halachic (and not just meta-halachic) prohibition involved, and a serious one which is not so easily dismissed. It promotes the problem to issur-kares-like problem, rather than going against a derabbanan or a minhag.<br /><br />And taking offense is not an intellectual answer to an intellectual problem. It is an emotional answer.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-30070974662474789302014-02-10T22:48:26.013-05:002014-02-10T22:48:26.013-05:00I haven't mastered shas, the tur, the sa, etc ...I haven't mastered shas, the tur, the sa, etc etc so I guess that makes me an am ha'aretz who is not qualified to give an opinion on any halachic matter whatsoever. So all I will state is my gut instinct:<br /><br />The idea that the prohibition of a woman wearing tefillin reaches the level of yehareg va'al yaavor is so offensive that it suggests something has gone VERY wrong with the halachic process.zachnoreply@blogger.com