tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post6582481668818456426..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Shabbat 75: Keeping the chilazon alivejoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-54270880229805461822023-05-15T00:00:04.937-04:002023-05-15T00:00:04.937-04:00This is a very late comment, but Pliny's rema...This is a very late comment, but Pliny's remarks on natural history are sometimes so astonishingly fantastic that I have very little confidence in his account of dye production. E.g., he seems to think that pearls are luscious and edible when freshly caught. <br /><br />Of the three major options suggested by modern authorities - sepia, Murex, and Janthina - I think that the first two are very hard to reconcile with Rashi's understanding of the gemora. How exactly is one to crush a murex with one's hand?Joe in Australianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-31435128426308642982021-03-02T09:16:45.644-05:002021-03-02T09:16:45.644-05:00I know Dr. Singer personally, and though I wear Pt...I know Dr. Singer personally, and though I wear Ptil Techeles myself on both Tallis and tzitizis, and disagree with his conclusions, I can vouch for his wonderful disposition and sterling charachter. Everything he wrote in the second half of his comment above is accurate. He is an איש אמת, and regardless if one accepts his conclusions or not, his arguments must be addressed the same way Ptil’s are. (Which I think R. Waxman did, by the way. He mentioned the Radziner angle, which I think is fair game to at least mention as relevant background, but did not attempt to simply dismiss Dr. Singer’s points on that basis alone.)<br /><br />Bekitzur - you’re both right!<br /><br />David FarkasDavid S. Farkasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-641048277605404332020-06-17T13:15:25.257-04:002020-06-17T13:15:25.257-04:00Drawing on Dr. Singer's comment on applying la...Drawing on Dr. Singer's comment on applying labels to different people, one can say the same thing about Techeiles wearers: oh, he wears Techeiles, don't listen to him. Never mind that the list of those that wear it is now quite lengthy and still growing: <a href="https://bluefringes.com/notable-wearers/" rel="nofollow">https://bluefringes.com/notable-wearers/</a>.<br /><br />We need to leave our biases aside in terms of sticking labels and apply merits where merits are due. The fact that Dr. Singer has ties to Radzyn (albeit not necessarily a Radzyner chossid) actually gives him an insiders perspective on Radzyner Techeiles that normally gets easily dismissed by the pro-murex crowd. While I'm personally in favor of murex Techeiles, I'm also in favor of honest dialogue in all fronts.Rafi Hechthttps://bluefringes.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-73833864523650551202020-06-17T13:11:09.237-04:002020-06-17T13:11:09.237-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.rhechthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03013286672634757014noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-54054812339320942722020-06-17T08:13:27.153-04:002020-06-17T08:13:27.153-04:00Actually, upon further reflection, I can be kinder...Actually, upon further reflection, I can be kinder to Pliny. When he refers to keeping it alive while catching, he probably refers not to the act of actually catching it(it isn't hard to not kill a snail while in the act of catching it), but to the activities associated with catching snails, which includes the actual catching and the storage of those caught while they are still catching others.Mendel Singerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15872810269321526755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-22506739947703557202020-06-17T00:16:02.847-04:002020-06-17T00:16:02.847-04:00From your quoting me, I know at least one person h...From your quoting me, I know at least one person has read what I’ve written (or at least one part)! My quote from Pliny was strictly in the context of responding to Ptil’s position where they quote half of a sentence. At least at that time, they said that they remove the dye from the gland while the murex is alive because the dye will be better. They support their position by quoting Pliny (or Aristotle) who say that you try to get the dye out while it is alive. My point in quoting Pliny was strictly to show that they should quote the entire sentence – which clearly states that keeping it alive is to preserve the secretion, and not because of improving the dye quality. As to your point about Pliny saying “catch this fish alive”, Pliny is making an error in his copying of Aristotle (he often copies Aristotle). This is a point that I think I saw originally in another work on purple dyeing). Aristotle is clearly talking about the process of getting the dye. Here is Aristotle (Book 5, Part 15): http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/history_anim.5.v.html<br />“Small specimens they break in pieces, shells and all, for it is no easy matter to extract the organ; but in dealing with the larger ones they first strip off the shell and then abstract the bloom. For this purpose the neck and mecon are separated, for the bloom lies in between them, above the so-called stomach; hence the necessity of separating them in abstracting the bloom. Fishermen are anxious always to break the animal in pieces while it is yet alive, for, if it die before the process is completed, it vomits out the bloom; and for this reason the fishermen keep the animals in creels, until they have collected a sufficient number and can attend to them at their leisure.”<br />The point is simply that Ptil’s attempt to reconcile what they do with the idea that the murex dye is worse if gotten from a dead snail doesn’t work, since the dye is apparently still of good quality for a couple of hours (according to their tests). You are taking another direction in reconciling this sugya.<br />By the way, do you try to identify people as Modern Orthodox in your blog posts? I ask because you identify me as a Radziner chossid (I wish I could earn that distinction). Is that really relevant? If it is, then identify all the Modern Orthodox as well. I believe that labels are counter-productive in these contexts. In the past, Ptil’s writings dismissed arguments because they were from a Radziner along the lines of “what do you expect him to say” – and then not answer the question. I believe material should be judged on its own merits. Intentional or otherwise, labels allow people to dismiss things that deserve review. Many people refused to review Ptil’s claims at all because they are Modern Orthodox. That was wrong. Labels all too often conjure up stereotypes. About chassidim, some will think of people who close themselves off from the world, and will never look at anything objectively if their Rebbe has a position on it. In the context of Chassidic stereotypes, I don’t fit in terms of culture or weltanschauung. I have no problem with people having a different opinion about the chilazon. I used to help people obtain Ptil techeiles – until I discovered how many untruths and misrepresentations they were perpetuating (not that all murex supporters do this). I welcome discourse that is intellectually honest. I saw my role in the debate as clearing up errors and misperceptions, so that honest discourse is possible and people can make their own decisions without being duped by false claims. I have respect for people who believe that murex trunculus is the chilazon, as long as they are being intellectually honest – I just think they’re wrong :) Of course, they think the same about me! Which is fine.<br />Kol Tuv!<br />mendelMendel Singerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15872810269321526755noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-34469927249671676362020-06-16T05:59:20.000-04:002020-06-16T05:59:20.000-04:00Thanks for the argument.
However, it seems incongr...Thanks for the argument.<br />However, it seems incongruous to view the gemarot as describing a meeting of tekhelet .manufactures,who were involved in dyeing. It may be easier to read as a legal deputation, discussing the halakhic issues, raising hypothetical situations to lead to a final legal conclusion.ziderman@smile.net.ilnoreply@blogger.com