tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post5521613367137010414..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Some thoughts on the Semicha "scandal"joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-18802240556319172262014-03-03T17:07:10.243-05:002014-03-03T17:07:10.243-05:00Rabbi Waxman,
Agree that conflation of the issues ...Rabbi Waxman,<br />Agree that conflation of the issues is a problem here, but the first issue you raised - consultation - seems like a bit of a red herring. Everyone - including Rabbi Yuter and evidently Rabbi* Shalom - agree that consulting experts on complex issues is a good and important (and, likely, necessary) thing. There's no indication Rabbi* Shalom didn't consult with an expert before making his decision, and at least some evidence (albeit an anonymous comment) saying he did. So consultation is not the issue here.<br /><br />The second issue you raised - deference - is a different matter entirely. It creates a big can of worms; for starters, the notion of "recognized "legitimate" posekim" you mentioned. Is there a list? An organization? How does one get added or struck off? Is it universal or communal? R' Schachter has indicated it goes by popular opinion in klal yisael (although you have far more expertise in his views than I do, so feel free to correct me if this is wrong.) If so, is Rabbi A. Weiss a "recognized legitimate posek"? What about R' YT Weiss? Does it matter if I live in Riverdale or Lakewood or B'nei Brak? I've read articles and heard shiurim on this approach, but no one ever seems to get down to these brass tacks. (If you have recommended reading/listening, I'm all ears.)<br /><br />Other problems include defining 'normative practice.' How common does something need to be before it's normative? How many Rabbis must matir it before it's normative? Not to mention that in today's world of connectivity, defining a community for a practice to be normative in becomes nearly impossible.<br /><br />My point is not that these issues make the approach you described incorrect; as I've stated before, I'm not qualified to have an opinion on that, and I also think there are significant problems with the alternate approaches I've encountered.<br /><br />The point I'm making is that YU and REITS do not seem to have done a very good job fleshing out the details of the policies they expect their musmachim to adhere to, and that strikes me as a big problem. The fact that at least some of their musmachim believe this isn't/wasn't RETITS' policy to begin with makes the matter worse. <br /><br />KT,<br />Hillel<br />Hillelhttp://frozentorah.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-35852323683563007652014-03-03T15:52:45.800-05:002014-03-03T15:52:45.800-05:00According to a comment on one of the stories, shal...According to a comment on one of the stories, shalom did consult and discuss with his rather left wing Rebbe in yu, who told him not to do it. And then he did it anyway, deviating from what is generally considered normative practice on the basis of opinions that apparently they don't consider mainstream enough. <br />I can't vouch for the veracity of that report, but there you have it.<br /><br />I can't see the context at the moment, but your first quote doesn't specify exclusively yu folks and includes the words normative practice. One might defer to recognized authorities within the recognized bet midrash and not go outside and then on that basis violate normative practice. <br /><br />The second quote seems to have to do with consultation in general.<br /><br />This is off the cuff especially since right now I don't have access to either full letter, but it does seem to correspond to two separate issues which certain folks were conflating. One, that not every graduate is equipped to pasken, and especially tough questions, without consultation. The other, that there is a normative halachic process of pesak among recognized "legitimate" posekim, and ignoring your own rabbis working within that methodology of pesak and going to a different methodology (maybe, to pick my own flavor, mechkar; or maybe a historical reanalysis of sociological influences of Rishonim to reject what has been the accepted opinion) and then land on a non normative practice with wide impact is not something you should do. joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-42401619024470918702014-03-03T15:31:03.229-05:002014-03-03T15:31:03.229-05:00Rabbi Waxman,
If YCT (or YU, or anyone else) told ...Rabbi Waxman,<br />If YCT (or YU, or anyone else) told its graduates - or led them to believe - that they would be poskim after graduation, and only after completion of the program told them they weren't, it absolutely would be a scandal. If they told them ahead of time, it wouldn't be.<br /><br />However, at this point, I'm just confused about REITS' position. I thought it was 'recent musmachim aren't permitted to pasken difficult questions; we expect them to ask their Rebbeim any such questions and follow their Rebbe's p'sak.' (In Rabbi Penner's words, recent musmachim are “expected to defer, in matters of normative practice, to the opinions of recognized poskim.”) <br /><br />Now, REITS' stated position is 'recent musmachim are permitted to pasken, but we expect them to consult with an experienced Rabbi, whether or not at or from YU, about any difficult questions before making a p'sak.' (In REITS' words "all of our graduates, including this young man, are trained and equipped to respond to halakhic questions. At the same time, we maintain that some questions require consultation with more experienced authorities, whether within or beyond the walls of our yeshiva.")<br /><br />That's a totally fair and reasonable position. It's just not what Rabbi Penner wrote. There's a very big difference between consulting with someone and deferring to them. (There's also a big difference between "recognized poskim" and "experienced authorities" but that's a different kettle of fish entirely.)<br /><br />It also means, assuming [soon-to-be] Rabbi Shalom consulted with a more experienced authority, and rendered a p'sak in accordance with the principles and traditions of YU as he understood them, there should never have been a problem to begin with. It will be interesting to learn (if it ever comes out) if he did so, and, if so, with whom he consulted.<br /><br />Re my core philosophy, I believe in asking questions of people who -as best I can determine - have knowledge and intellectual honesty, and then seriously considering their responses. I do this in every aspect of my life. It has been my experience that the people being asked often take these questions as an attack or a sign I reject their viewpoint and am trying to deride it, when in fact I am merely trying to find out more about it. That's presumably a flaw in my personality, but I do what I can to be polite and respectful.<br /><br />KT,<br />HillelHillelhttp://frozentorah.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-73718213247872357292014-03-03T07:29:09.921-05:002014-03-03T07:29:09.921-05:00update: on Facebook, Rabbi Asher Lopatin writes:
...update: on Facebook, Rabbi Asher Lopatin writes:<br /><br /><i>"Rabbi Love, our main posek at YCT, spends over a dozen hours a week answering sophisticated questions from YCT musmachim - on building mikvaot, establishing Eruvs, kashrut etc. Of course not every Musmach is a posek. But we be leave [sic] in "aseh lecha Rav" and we trust our musmachim in that effort. More right-wing Yeshivot have rejected this most basic halachic right, and has limited the choice to a few Rabbanim - leaving off the list critical Torah authorities. Chaval for their Talmidim..."</i><br /><br />So it seems that even in YCT, not every rabbi is a posek. Scandal! :)joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-71802975696612601332014-03-02T21:58:44.171-05:002014-03-02T21:58:44.171-05:00so we don't know the scope. and one of the nam...so we don't know the scope. and one of the named rabbis involved has repeatedly criticized rav schachter in the past, and this is a continuation of his attack, and probably knew that this was a typical approach of rabbeim of REITS (though not necessarily his own rabbis).<br /><br />Meanwhile, maybe those <i>"who took it as a matter of course that they would consult their rebbeim before paskening tricky issues, but not that they were bound by their rebbeim"</i> are among those who ARE deemed as rauy lehora'ah, certainly in the non-tricky cases. About tricky issues, I would have to speak with them personally with examples to see if they really believed that they were qualified IMMEDIATELY upon graduation, still wet behind the ears, without any shimush in pesak and how pesak is made, to decide issues that have great sociological impact upon the Jewish community. (e.g. not toothbrushing on Shabbos, but whether to engage in interfaith dialogue, criteria for accepting geirim without kabbalat ol mitzvot.) I'd be surprised. One needs shimush in e.g. seeing mar'ot dam. See <a href="http://pitputim.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/shimush-in-our-time/" rel="nofollow">here</a> for an expansion on this idea of shimush in pesak.<br /><br />http://pitputim.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/shimush-in-our-time/<br /><br />By core philosophy I meant one that I derived from previous comments you've made on related issues. But let us drop that.<br /><br />Sure, maybe I'm biased to not see scandal. but I do think that the Jewish Week and the Forward have an interest in scandal and in delegitimizing Rav Schachter and RIETS, and anything deemed to far to the right.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-5352075542257523692014-03-02T21:23:52.534-05:002014-03-02T21:23:52.534-05:00Rabbi,
Fair enough. It's not a scandal. It&...Rabbi,<br /><br />Fair enough. It's not a scandal. It's a potential scandal. If there are dozens, or hundreds, of Rabbis, who did not know this was RIETS policy, then surely it is a scandal, right? Based on the articles you linked to, there are at least three. Now the only question is the scope; are we dealing with a couple of Rabbis who just didn't get the message, or is this a major unpleasant surprise to a whole lot of RIETS graduates. My impression (based on a very limited sample size) is that this is big news to RIETS graduates, who took it as a matter of course that they would consult their rebbeim before paskening tricky issues, but not that they were bound by their rebbeim or - most importantly - that they were not deemed rauy lehora'ah by YU upon graduation.<br /> <br />I don't have a core philosophy on this matter, and I am not qualified to formulate one. I think both approaches have advantages and disadvantages, and danged if I know which is more legitimate based on the sources or in the best interests on klal yisroel.<br /><br />But, if I need to ask myself if I am predisposed to find scandals because I disagreed with the core philosophy, surely you also need to ask yourself if you are predisposed to not finding a scandal because you agree with the core philosophy, right?<br /><br />KT,<br />HillelHillelhttp://frozentorah.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-7782215296350989052014-03-02T19:56:07.584-05:002014-03-02T19:56:07.584-05:00Meh. Firstly, numerous? Most of the sources were ...Meh. Firstly, numerous? Most of the sources were anonymous. And how many are they? Hundreds? One named source in the article acknowledges that he is operating under a different methodology than the mainstream standard approach. (And had a preexisting bone to pick.) Let the remaining folks engage in discussion and see if they really understand that part of the statement and what it means. <br /><br />You don't know why the vast majority of people entered the semicha program, nor whether those who did in order to become decisors by and large did absorb this philosophy. Our if those who went on to be halachic decisors are the type of rabbi who is qualified. "Not all individuals" doesn't mean there are no individuals. <br /><br />One can always manufacture "scandals". But ask yourself if you are predisposed to find such scandals because of a disagreement with the core philosophy. joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-18111908165854855912014-03-02T18:41:32.962-05:002014-03-02T18:41:32.962-05:00R' Waxman,
I totally agree there's no reas...R' Waxman,<br />I totally agree there's no reason to think this was anything but a principled disagreement with both sides trying their best to act l'sheim shamayim.<br /><br />But there IS a scandal here, and I think it's a very big one. <br /><br />REITS' official position is that "not all individuals given the title of “rabbi” are entitled to serve as decisors of Jewish law."<br /><br />Yet numerous REITS musmachim are saying 'that's not true. Indeed, that's why I entered the program, to become a decisor of Jewish law; in four years no one ever said otherwise, and I've got a klaf to prove it!'<br /><br />As best I can tell, this means that either REITS silently adopted a fairly radical change in philosophy and began enforcing it without any forewarning, or that this has been REITS' policy all along and they have communicated it so poorly that numerous smart and honest Rabbis who completed the four-year program had no idea this philosophy existed at all, much less was normative practice.<br /><br />Either way, that is a scandal.<br /><br />KT,<br />HillelHillelhttp://frozentorah.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-7432921365602913352014-02-28T11:41:36.615-05:002014-02-28T11:41:36.615-05:00In many Sephardic synagogues, women say Hagomel al...In many Sephardic synagogues, women say Hagomel all the time from behind the Mehitza on Shabbat after traveling. If they have a husband who also traveled, it's preferred to have the husband make it and have her in mind.<br /><br />It is also very common at a Berit Mila when the mother of the baby does so. When there is a traditional gathering at the home the night before the Berit, and there are 10 men present, the mother can say it then instead.yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.com