tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post4620904296997296754..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Are all matzeivot forbidden, or just idolatrous ones?joshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-21013069898871311662009-08-19T09:59:23.820-04:002009-08-19T09:59:23.820-04:00indeed, that is a very good one, in terms of DH, b...indeed, that is a very good one, in terms of DH, because these events according to the traditional understanding happened after the Mosaic command. (naturally <a href="http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15808/showrashi/true" rel="nofollow">Rashi</a> offers explanations of this.)<br /><br />are you thinking here of the even gedolah, or of the alah? if the even gedolah, i am not sure this would necessarily be considered a matzeiva, in the standard sense. the alah might not be an ashera. even if this were a permanent sanctuary, perhaps the purpose is practical rather than religious. if you are going to have a place where people congregate and stick around, it makes sense to put it in a place with natural shade. i wonder, indeed, if that is the reason for building bamos וְתַחַת כָּל-עֵץ רַעֲנָן וְתַחַת כָּל-אֵלָה עֲבֻתָּה -- not for a religious purposes, and they did not plant them for these purposes, but merely because it was a convenient shady place, and etz raanan.<br /><br />meanwhile, the prohibition in Devarim is to plant it lechatchila, לֹא-תִטַּע לְךָ.<br /><br />this also might encourage us to adopt Ibn Ezra's parse, in which case neither the avos' actions nor yehoshua's actions would present any problem...<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-68943466769479520672009-08-18T17:21:28.455-04:002009-08-18T17:21:28.455-04:00Hi Josh, How about this one.
Joshua 24:26
וַיִּ...Hi Josh, How about this one. <br />Joshua 24:26<br /><br /> וַיִּכְתֹּב יְהוֹשֻׁעַ אֶת-הַדְּבָרִים הָאֵלֶּה, בְּסֵפֶר תּוֹרַת אֱלֹהִים; וַיִּקַּח, אֶבֶן גְּדוֹלָה, וַיְקִימֶהָ שָּׁם, תַּחַת הָאַלָּה אֲשֶׁר בְּמִקְדַּשׁ יְהוָה<br />. <br /><br />As you said, probably there was no problem with this until it became idol worship. Similar to the Nehushtan that Hezekiah destroyed.<br />I wonder whether this is connected in anyway to the kabbalistic Leshem Yihud? Interesting.Ben Gurionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-83847253303637452372009-08-18T14:18:18.908-04:002009-08-18T14:18:18.908-04:00btw, the link doesn't work for me.
kt,
joshbtw, the link doesn't work for me.<br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-80158689814996895962009-08-18T14:17:32.078-04:002009-08-18T14:17:32.078-04:00ah, thanks. is there evidence that if there is a t...ah, thanks. is there evidence that if there is a tree at Elon Moreh, that Avraham was responsible for it?<br /><br />offhand, there may be a difference in terms of it not being called an Ashera, and thus lacking in the association with the divine consort. and yaakov's was a standalone matzeiva explicitly to Hashem, and functioned somewhat as an altar itself, rather than something accompanying the altar and possibly directed at a divine consort. Rashi/Sifrei may have a point that later associations by overuse in specific idolatrous cults poisoned the practice, such that it fell out of favor (at whatever point).<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-53620211835856596132009-08-18T14:07:45.845-04:002009-08-18T14:07:45.845-04:00An interesting story about one who tried to plant ...An interesting story about one who tried to plant an eshel in Beer Sheva:<br /><br />http://www.moreshet.co.il/kahana/tavnit2.asp?x=133&kod_subject=1600&kod_subjectm=1633&pg=Ben Gurionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-86901376764146486982009-08-18T13:56:54.104-04:002009-08-18T13:56:54.104-04:00Ah, the avos planted trees at the holy places, if ...Ah, the avos planted trees at the holy places, if I am not mistaken ashera is a tree.<br />ויטע (אברהם) אשל בבאר שבע ויקרא שָׁם בשם ה' אל עולם<br /><br /> I think Alon moreh was also some kind of holy tree at the altar in Shechem.<br /><br />Of course, a non-koferdik appraoch would be to say that D was lost, and found in the Bayt Hamikdash during the reign of Josiah, so the halakhot of not sacrificing on the bamot was lost to them.Ben Gurionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-62416813230773244012009-08-18T13:45:59.413-04:002009-08-18T13:45:59.413-04:00where do we see the avos making asherot?
kt,
joshwhere do we see the avos making asherot?<br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-83067083924162869882009-08-18T13:36:32.428-04:002009-08-18T13:36:32.428-04:00I am ambiguous about the DH, but the truth is that...I am ambiguous about the DH, but the truth is that the Avot did make asherot and bamot as written in genesis. G-d wasn't angry with Abraham? But he was before the Torah, though the Torah says he kept the whole torah.<br />Examples though, for where the Josianic reform can be felt is with 'eating on the blood'. During Shmuel hanavi, it was wrong, so Shaul built an altar, so as to sacrifice the blood. But this is completely assur (building altars) according to Deut. With regards the blood, no problem, just spill it on the ground like water. This is the strength of the DH. The mefarshim in Shmuel have to bend back and foreards to explain the discrepancy (i.e. what Bnei Yisrael did wrong) <br />Read I samuel 14:32-35.Ben Gurionnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-52365937764606433262009-08-18T08:56:56.181-04:002009-08-18T08:56:56.181-04:00BG - Of course these verses are designed to combat...BG - Of course these verses are designed to combat a preexisting desire to built asherot/matzevot. That desire was likely present in both Moshe and Josiah's times, so it is not clear what the DH adds here.<br /><br />JW - Does God have and process emotions the same way we do? If we hated matzevot, we would likely have a negative reaction whenever we saw a matzeva, whatever the circumstances. If God "hates" matzevot, it likely means that God disapproves and intends to punish their use. I do not think there is the same implication regarding how God would have felt about a matzeva built in different circumstances centuries beforehand.<br /><br />The same approach explains God's "haron af" - not that He gets angry like we do, but that He begins to inflict a punishment. I'm not sure how well this approach works for positive emotions like rachamim (emotional reciprocity is harder to reconcile with pure action by one side), but I think it is a good way of explaining God's negative emotions in Tanach.shlomonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-26953086212267844862009-08-17T12:16:14.920-04:002009-08-17T12:16:14.920-04:00Of course the DH would say that deuteronomy was wr...Of course the DH would say that deuteronomy was written during Josiah, so the Asherah (trees) and bamot were outlawed, even for Hashem's sake.Ben Gurionnoreply@blogger.com