tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post434884582636287511..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Why Tashrat should really sufficejoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-16537077801067337662012-09-21T10:01:28.182-04:002012-09-21T10:01:28.182-04:00see Rav Hai Gaon inside, bottom left. note that he...see Rav Hai Gaon inside, bottom left. note that he only mentions two prior traditions, rather than three prior traditions.<br /><br />http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=37956&st=&pgnum=91joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-7888459973273208222012-09-20T18:49:05.555-04:002012-09-20T18:49:05.555-04:00i'm not sure myself, and would like to see the...i'm not sure myself, and would like to see the teshuva from Rav Hai Gaon myself inside. <br /><br />but compare / contrast with Rabbenu Chananel, and see the one point he does not mention, that the joint tashrat is following a previously unmentioned third minhag. absent this statement, the implication *might* be that tashrat is all Rabbi Abahu instituted, to fulfill both shitot simultaneously.<br /><br />on the other hand, it is a rejection of the question of the gemara's hava amina, that it was instituted because of a safek.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-92060488735281916762012-09-20T10:32:39.500-04:002012-09-20T10:32:39.500-04:00I don't have the Rosh in front of me to reread...I don't have the Rosh in front of me to reread, but I don't think it's necessary to posit that Rav Hai Gaon had a different Girsa.Avihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15987913203857736139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-19965004704727315652012-09-19T22:01:00.997-04:002012-09-19T22:01:00.997-04:00Avi:
Thanks. Do you think that Rav Hai Gaon had o...Avi:<br /><br />Thanks. Do you think that Rav Hai Gaon had our same gemara?<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-67068255340220938852012-09-19T10:02:16.598-04:002012-09-19T10:02:16.598-04:00Check the quote from R. Hai Gaon brought by the Ro...Check the quote from R. Hai Gaon brought by the Rosh.Avihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15987913203857736139noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-34450267800960309682012-09-19T09:06:50.330-04:002012-09-19T09:06:50.330-04:00one could answer, btw, that the setama **is** Ravi...one could answer, btw, that the setama **is** Ravina. and his purpose in his maskif lah is to demonstrate the flimsiness of the resolution to the first maskif lah, such that one would need to repeat both sets anyway; in which case it must be that Rabbi Avahu's institution was to serve a completely different purpose.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-66661251183614015172012-09-19T08:50:42.187-04:002012-09-19T08:50:42.187-04:00no harmonize -> to harmonizeno harmonize -> to harmonizejoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-79472437762881205812012-09-19T08:50:04.397-04:002012-09-19T08:50:04.397-04:00Chanokh:
"As for Tircha de-tzibbura - come on...Chanokh:<br />"As for Tircha de-tzibbura - come on."<br /><br />indeed, those are also issues, but don't complain to me! complain to <b>the Rif</b>, who spoke of <a href="http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/157/946/1024/08-29-2006%2009%3B49%3B21AM.jpg" rel="nofollow">tircha detzibura</a> in this regard. (perhaps one can distinguish the cases, though; it is more of a tircha to wait in the middle of the silent amida.)<br /><br />personally, i don't find it particularly troublesome. i just raise it as a counterpoint to those who (through the generations) kept increasing the tekios, as if it is only positive to increase the burden on the tzibbur.<br /><br />it might be more burdensome if we hold, as they announce in many shuls, that one may not interrupt until the last tekiot after kadish.<br /><br />"in the end it seems to me than, absent a major support from at least a Rishon, we pasken like the stamma di-Gmara"<br /><br />how we pasken is another issue. indeed, i noted that this is not halacha lemaaseh.<br /><br />you aren't going to get support from a rishon. but you are going to get support from Rabbi Abahu's contemporary, Rav Avira. Both of them were Amoraim of Eretz Yisrael, of the same generation, and students of Rabbi Yochanan. Did Rav Avira really misunderstand so much what was happening in his own time, such that he made a thoroughly mistaken interpretation of Rabbi Avahu's institution in Caesaria?! And did this misinterpretation really stand in its place, throughout all the generations of Amoraim, even to the redactor of the Talmud, Ravina, who also misunderstood it in his question?!<br /><br />The general business of the stama degemara is no harmonize. And it found a way to harmonize, even if it is (to our eyes) somewhat farfetched. Whatever its motivations, Ravina and Rav Ashi were sof horaah.<br /><br />We could always take the position of the <a href="http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8_%D7%94%D7%A7%D7%A0%D7%94" rel="nofollow">kabbalistic sefer</a>, ספר הקנה, that the give and take in the Talmud is so ridiculous that it must be that there is a deeper mystical level hidden therein.<br /><br />Still, lehalacha and not lemaaseh.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-67360310717923610762012-09-19T08:20:27.551-04:002012-09-19T08:20:27.551-04:00I don't get it. You can put forth all the psha...I don't get it. You can put forth all the pshatim you want, in the end it seems to me than, absent a major support from at least a Rishon, we pasken like the stamma di-Gmara. Why don't you take into account the possibility that the Mesadrei ha-Shas did think about your -farily obvious - pshat and rejected it, and that we should rather be inquiring into their motivations? <br />As for Tircha de-tzibbura - come on. The inflation of tekios is really nothing compared to the lenghty additions in the Amida itself (u-v-khen, aleinu leshabeach...), which are of Geonic origin, not to mention all the piyyutim, the pre-tekia bakkashot, the lenghty niggunim for the Kedusha, etc. Chanokhnoreply@blogger.com