tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post3330659966055228664..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Mor dror as muskjoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-22792980086986473062013-11-02T02:17:34.524-04:002013-11-02T02:17:34.524-04:00I think mor is ambergris. It was thought to come f...I think mor is ambergris. It was thought to come from the throat of a "great fish", used as a fixative in perfume and nose of wine. It was gathered on the beaches of the Red Sea in antiquity. Although it is not produced by the whale shark, this great fish inhabits the Afar rift where ambergris is gathered. It was not known that sperm whales were the source until the 1800's.Susan Burnshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07504380791551640216noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-80800070165353499382011-02-20T06:12:09.675-05:002011-02-20T06:12:09.675-05:00see also the discussion here:
http://www.dafyomi.c...see also the discussion here:<br />http://www.dafyomi.co.il/chulin/insites/ch-dt-059.htm<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-8001135208822902482011-02-20T06:07:04.177-05:002011-02-20T06:07:04.177-05:00thanks. please choose a pseudonym, since it makes ...thanks. please choose a pseudonym, since it makes it easier for me and other commenters to track who is saying what.<br /><br />indeed, besides the fangs (really, tusks) i mentioned, they have no horns, and the gemara in Chullin 59b gives it in a brayta as a siman for a kosher chaya. but again, this would appear to be a siman, rather than a siba, as rabbi slifkin above writes.<br /><br />i would be surprised if <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meir_Abulafia" rel="nofollow">the Raavad</a>, living in medieval France, would have seen the actual musk deer whose habitat is only in India. There is no indication that he traveled there. As I'll lay out in my next post, my suspicion is that he was basing himself upon the explicit words of the Rambam: הַמּוֹר--הוּא הַדָּם הַצָּרוּר בַּחַיָּה שֶׁבְּהֹדוּ. Unlike Ibn Ezra, Rambam makes no mention that it is, or is akin to, a kosher chaya, so he made the contrary leap; and Rambam makes mention that it is (initially) dam, so he argues against that aspect as well.<br /><br />"You cannot say Rav Chisda did not know about Musk because Musk deer have been around since the time of Moshe Rabbeinu (according to the Rambam and many others) and b/c the Gemara itself has a specific name for Musk."<br />But that they know of the name musk, as that the gemara itself declares that musk comes from a chaya does not mean that they traveled to India and observed this deer itself. Rather, it was likely imported by others, and they relied on the reports of others for any sort of zoological information. Or Rav Chisda was only giving a siman effective for where people would be likely traveling. Or, if you examine the gemara firsthand, he only speaks of upper teeth, not of camel fangs, which are entirely different. It appears to be the setama degemara which brings these in. And tusks, which could not really be used for chewing, might not even be considered upper teeth in this regard.<br /><br /><i>So when he made his rule he certainly had musk in mind.</i><br />I'd be caution about using the word "certainly".<br /><br /><i>Also, the Rambam specifically says in his Peirush HaMishna to Krisus (like R' Saadia and the Radak say) that the Musk must be pure, meaning unadulterated, not mixed with anything else. this is based on the passuk "Mor D'ror".</i><br />which Mishna, please. also, you were not clear whether Rambam explicitly says that this is based on the pasuk, or whether you are surmising this on your own.<br /><br />what are they basing themselves on? onkelos, and the gemara's quote of that Onkelos in the context of a Penteteuchal source for Mordecha? or something stronger? or is it speculation in the absence of better evidence?<br /><br /><i>So I don't know why you were creating your own peshat.</i><br />you could ask the same on Ramban, another Rishon who created his own peshat in this, and from whom i took my cue.<br /><br />basically, dror means free. how does free get you to pure, especially as the Torah already has words like "zach" it uses in this context for pure. thus ramban says free range deer and i note mor over in shir hashirim where it means flowing, and where such a distinction accords with what we now know of the realia. im kabbalah hi nekabel v'im ledin yesh teshuvah.<br /><br /><i> There's an article on all this in Koveitz Etz Chaim (#11 and the notes in the back)</i><br />thanks. i'll try to find it to read up upon.<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-41906143621303092282011-02-19T23:32:44.529-05:002011-02-19T23:32:44.529-05:00The biggest issue with Musk deer is that they have...The biggest issue with Musk deer is that they have no horns. Chayos, wild animals generally require horns to be Kosher. Also, the genetic makeup of Musk is different than regular deer in a number of ways. The Raavad seems to have actually seen the Musk, unlike most Rishonim, and he felt it was nonkosher probably b/c the lack of horns and the fangs (fangs are also unusual to most deer). You cannot say Rav Chisda did not know about Musk because Musk deer have been around since the time of Moshe Rabbeinu (according to the Rambam and many others) and b/c the Gemara itself has a specific name for Musk. So when he made his rule he certainly had musk in mind. Also, the Rambam specifically says in his Peirush HaMishna to Krisus (like R' Saadia and the Radak say) that the Musk must be pure, meaning unadulterated, not mixed with anything else. this is based on the passuk "Mor D'ror". So I don't know why you were creating your own peshat. There's an article on all this in Koveitz Etz Chaim (#11 and the notes in the back)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-59190699176683329562011-02-16T12:58:42.415-05:002011-02-16T12:58:42.415-05:00Rav Zevihi, in his book on the Ketoret, quotes the...Rav Zevihi, in his book on the Ketoret, quotes the Ariza"l's matching each spice of the Ketoret to the 10 Sefirot (with the Levona corresponding to the אור מקיף). The spice "Mor" corresponds to the Sefira of Hessed. As an explanation for this, he quotes someone (I forgot who) who says that based on those Rishonim who say Mor comes from animal blood, we can say similar to a nursing woman's דם נעכר ונעשה חלב - that blood, which represents דין, now turns into a fragrance and נתמתקו הדינים. This is how "Mor" corresponds to "Hessed".<br /><br />I know that throwing in some Kabbala on this blog with Rabbi Slifkin watching will always be entertaining. :-)yaakhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08179304707239865515noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-21736132037697665412011-02-16T08:50:09.948-05:002011-02-16T08:50:09.948-05:00thanks. the rule of thumb bit is what i figured. i...thanks. the rule of thumb bit is what i figured. i suppose <a href="http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14276&st=&pgnum=21" rel="nofollow">the Raavad</a> just didn't see the musk deer and made this assumption. and perhaps he relied on the Rambam, who does not even say that it is like a tzvi, just that it is a chaya which lives in India.<br /><br />kt,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-19638893137343836632011-02-16T08:31:53.943-05:002011-02-16T08:31:53.943-05:00Musk deer are most definitely kosher. The upper te...Musk deer are most definitely kosher. The upper teeth rule is a rule-of-thumb to help identify split-hooved ruminants. It's a siman, not a sibah. As a rule-of-thumb, it's perfect for the olam of Chazal, and pretty good elsewhere.Natan Slifkinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04488707201313046847noreply@blogger.com