tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post3164449103047556821..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: Why I am in favor of selling Chametzjoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-61371364924043985172013-11-08T04:41:24.969-05:002013-11-08T04:41:24.969-05:00Allow me to offer a defense of the neo-Karaite pos...Allow me to offer a defense of the neo-Karaite position.<br /><br />Before Pesah I eat matzah, if I want to, up to a day before Pesach, I don't bother to look for crumbs smaller than a kezayit, so Pesach cleaning takes about an afternoon. On Seder night I don't have to stuff huge amounts of matzah in my mouth in my mouth in three minutes; I eat some reasonably bitter chicory/lettuce instead of burning my mouth on horseradish. Throughout Pesach I freely enjoy matzah balls, kitniyot, dairy products, garlic, vegetables that are not peeled and all manner of things other people abstain from. I eat in other people's houses without guilt. I have modified the Hagada to make it more meaningful and enjoyable for those participating.<br /><br />For me this not only makes for a much more pleasurable festival but one that, IMHO, is a lot closer to what the Torah portrays. The flipside of this is that by the same, broadly-speaking-Rambamist, assumptions on which I have made these decisions (under Rabbincal guidance, I should probably add), I cannot sell my hametz using the normal means. One year I actually sold some to a gentile acquaintance of mine, thinking I might buy some back, but never got round to it. Other years I just plan ahead a bit to make sure I don't have any chametz left over by Pesah. It's not really that difficult.<br /><br />So maybe you're right and what I do is not required by the spirit or letter of either peshat or halacha, but if I don't follow this "humra" then all I'm doing with the rest of my decisions is kula-shopping, and that way lies Conservative Judaism. This is the real harama I'm worried about.<br /><br />And then I apply the same logic to the rest of my life. I have certain stringencies that are fairly rare. Except for rare extenuating circumstances, I would never wear a tallit without Murex Tekhelet on, I don't eat Hadash from hutz la'aretz, I won't use an Eruv premised on the idea that a reshut harabim must have 600,000 in it, I won't let my wife wear a sheitel (luckily a purely hypothetical issue, since she doesn't want to), I won't use an electric razor.<br /><br />In all these cases, I think I am in the right and would argue so. However, let's say I'm wrong and these are completely pointless stringencies. In that case, this is the price I pay for freeing myself from countless burdensome and/or inane practices that, in my view, are not required of me by halacha. At the same time I have conception of Judaism that is consistent and rationally defensible and which I can present to my children honestly and confidently. As deals go, that seems a no-brainer.<br /><br />(I note you are not averse to a bit of Neo-Karaism yourself, when it implies leniency http://parsha.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/tazria-dam-tohar.html)Gabriel Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-49108418894336220302013-11-07T18:08:38.648-05:002013-11-07T18:08:38.648-05:00I just read this link for the first time and I'...I just read this link for the first time and I'll admit I was a little stung by the "Neo-Karaite" label, but I'll admit it's not entirely inaccurate.<br /><br />Nevertheless, I think this jars poorly with some other opinions of your's for example those expressed here:<br />http://parsha.blogspot.co.uk/2008/03/tazria-dam-tohar.html<br /><br />So it may be true that I in following the Ramabam in not using eruvim based on the (absurd in the light of present historical knowledge) concept that that a reshut harabim must have 600,000 people am a Neo-Karaite, but it seems that you are too, when it suits you. But what links your opinions except the conviction that the leniencies are always good?Gabriel Mnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-46346380111460924042013-03-06T22:41:26.501-05:002013-03-06T22:41:26.501-05:00Josh I just saw this and thought it was interestin...Josh I just saw this and thought it was interesting but I needed to make a few corrections. You can read them <a href="http://whatthebible.blogspot.com/2013/03/leaven-from-heaven.html" rel="nofollow">here</a> on my blog, which is still starting up. Thanks for giving me a little inspiration for my first in-depth post.Benohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15037225789923156287noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-14069726460961992902013-02-28T19:05:06.220-05:002013-02-28T19:05:06.220-05:00Shimon S:
I should point out that everything I wro...Shimon S:<br />I should point out that everything I wrote in the post I think is true. And there is a value in understanding what peshat is, as separate from derash.<br /><br />AZ:<br />But in this case, it has indeed become an entrenched part of Jewish (Ashkenazic) life. This is the minhag hamakom,and along with the minhag hamakom is a spirit of the law. We keep Pesach in a multifaceted way. Putting away our chametz and taping the shelves is part of it. Going to the rabbi to sell is part of it. Having a seder is part of it. And different Jewish communities, following halacha as it has developed in unique multifaceted ways, have their take on the spirit of the law, and the law may indeed assume new spirits.<br /><br />The Mishna in Pesachim, in perek Mekom sheNahagu speaks of keeping with the minhag hamakom, and if one moves, of taking the more stringent, so as to avoid machlokes. As the meforshim ask, how is not working on the 14th before chatzos avoiding machlokes? After all, he is taking a side? The answer is he does it silently, and people assume he has no work to do.<br /><br />The Mishna does NOT say there that someone coming from the place with the more stringent minhag should publicly criticize the minhag of his new place, and to delegitimize the opposing minhag, in order to induce machlokes.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-27354078396355102452013-02-28T16:29:04.577-05:002013-02-28T16:29:04.577-05:00Hi Josh,
I think that there is another considerati...Hi Josh,<br />I think that there is another consideration here. Don’t confuse using a heter with the way of life we should lead. Hashem created the Torah to be eternal, as part of that the halachic system was built with certain heterim that are meant to be used only in special circumstances – not as a way of life. These heterim I believe Hashem built into the Torah for humanitarian relief in terrible circumstance (agunah, mamzeirus, etc) they are not meant to be a way of life. I think R’ Amsalem is making this mistake. He questions why R’ Ovadia Yosef was opposed to his conversion leniencies, when ROY ruled similarly in the past. The explanation is simple, if there is a nice kollel family, and all of a sudden they realize that the grandmother’s gerus (who wasn’t really frum) did not have kabbalah Ol Mitzvos – so maybe ROY would rule that it is okay – he used the heter – the escape hatch – that the Torah built into the system to save this family. But it shouldn’t be used as a way of life. We are definitely not required to accept a conversion without kabbalah Ol Mitzvos – at most we are allowed to – the Rabbis will use their discretion to apply this heter in extenuating circumstances. Obviously to become a Jew means to try your best to keep the mitzvos – what else does it mean – that you like bagels and lox?! Membership in the jewish people is not a Costco membership. In your case, no one can halachically demand that you stop selling chametz – the question is – is selling chametz against the spirit of the law or not. If it is against the spirit of the law – then don’t make the heter of selling a way of life – it should be used sparingly – let’s say someone’s life would be ruined if he doesn’t sell chometz because he would lose his whole investory. etc. On the other hand in the case of chametz you might be right that it is not against the spirit of the law to sell. That is the question. I just wrote this to show why we have to be careful not to use heterim as a way of life.<br />One other example, if R’ Moshe Feinstein declared in a certain case that a child is not a mamzer even though there was no get by the first marriage (because the first marriage was not a real marriage), don’t as a way of life not require a get in similar circumstances. And you should require a get not just as an extra precaution – but because that is the way of life we should lead.<br /><br />Kol tuv,<br />AZ<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-55128720120554985062013-02-28T08:54:57.971-05:002013-02-28T08:54:57.971-05:00I hear. But sometimes it is better to ignore the e...I hear. But sometimes it is better to ignore the extreme views rather than giving an answer that might embrace the opposite extreme (to the exclusion of any recognition of pluralism).<br /><br />Here is an example of one possible balanced view:<br /><br />http://vbm-torah.org/archive/halak65/19halak.htmShimon Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-43347704911754630442013-02-27T23:13:09.569-05:002013-02-27T23:13:09.569-05:00i wasn't trying to make it seem like an attack...i wasn't trying to make it seem like an attack on any one individual. because it isn't.<br /><br />i would also point out that Sefardim do not traditionally sell their chametz. there is then traditional halachic positions, which they follow, which in turn could lead to doubting the legitimacy of the practice. rather than it being the other way around.<br /><br />i don't know where it ends.<br /><br />but when someone starts spouting to me about shaving, and how Biblically removing beards was entirely forbidden, and relying on interpretations by Rishonim of gemaras to permit in some way is against the spirit of the law... well, i have the urge to point them to Ibn Ezra's explanation of the relevant pesukim.<br /><br />i don't have all the answers, as to where i would stop.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-51332491708804751302013-02-27T22:48:46.682-05:002013-02-27T22:48:46.682-05:00Aah, now the circle is complete. The last comment ...Aah, now the circle is complete. The last comment should have been part of the original post. Now I can fit it into the big picture.<br /><br />Just wondering: where do you stop? Are all the poskim who connect ha'arama and the spirit of the law also neo-karaites? Are there any true Scotsmen left in the non-selling-chametz camp?Shimon Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-62809195859014899292013-02-27T22:41:04.645-05:002013-02-27T22:41:04.645-05:00and here are others who think it is fake.and here are <a href="http://www.globalyeshiva.com/forum/topics/727216:Topic:25757" rel="nofollow">others</a> who think it is fake.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-66521862975190423342013-02-27T22:21:06.288-05:002013-02-27T22:21:06.288-05:00hey, i said as ONE example. and that we disagree a...hey, i said as ONE example. and that we disagree as to the background motivation does not mean that i created a straw-man.<br /><br />here is another example, <a href="http://vesomsechel.blogspot.com/2012/04/some-thoughts-on-selling-hametz.html" rel="nofollow">more rabbinic</a> than frum satire, which was going to be my prompt to post last year (check the comment section):<br /><br /><i>Let's face it though - selling hametz MAY "work" on a technical level, but in terms of the spirit of the law it fails miserably. Psychologically, we never fully disconnect from our hametz, knowing that it is safe and sound in our cabinets. We never experience the absolute dissociation from hametz we were meant to experience on Passover. "Sure, we sold our hametz" we say - wink wink - as we anxiously await reopening those cabinets at nightfall when the holiday draws to a close and we can once again partake of the hametz we possessed all along...</i><br /><br />do you see what might prompt me to talk about the spirit of the law? haarama is just one facet of this, which is an underlying sense of the integrity and authenticity of the practice, or lack thereof. if you think that this is inauthentic and against the spirit of the law, then i think it is just human nature to see the technical halachic objections to the practice as more convincing than you otherwise would.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-81385410138680694162013-02-27T20:47:08.427-05:002013-02-27T20:47:08.427-05:00Frum Satire? About selling chametz via online form...Frum Satire? About selling chametz via online form few minutes before Pesach?<br /><br />C'mon, I do believe most opponents in the frum circles do so for strictly halachic reasons. Creating a straw-man and then killing it counts at best as some sort of mental exercise. This is a Choshen Mishpat (and Orach Chaim) question. Shimon Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-54652268389131927072013-02-27T20:25:37.162-05:002013-02-27T20:25:37.162-05:00Shimon S:
How about this, as one example?
I suspe...Shimon S:<br />How about <a href="http://www.frumsatire.net/2010/03/28/selling-your-chometz-seems-like-such-a-sham/" rel="nofollow">this</a>, as one example?<br /><br />I suspect that other people will officially latch on to official reasons, but there is an unstated motivation there. That is what I meant by "viscerally".joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-9848096653446529892013-02-27T19:26:23.750-05:002013-02-27T19:26:23.750-05:00RJW:
"most oppose it viscerally due to haara...RJW:<br /><br />"most oppose it viscerally due to haarama being a "cheat"."<br /><br />Do they? I was under the impression that most oppose it for the reasons stated by the GRA. Who are the people you are talking about (SSNs, or at least an example, please).Shimon Snoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-34196840691996278042013-02-26T19:26:29.741-05:002013-02-26T19:26:29.741-05:00those poskim who maintain that one can sell chamet...those poskim who maintain that one can sell chametz might well argue whether it is, or whether such is required.<br /><br />but this isn't an attempt to justify an improper leniency. rather, it is just what i said at the outset of the post. hashkafically, does opposing this leniency as inauthentic ring true? most oppose it viscerally due to haarama being a "cheat".<br /><br />kol tuv,<br />joshjoshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05149022516101476797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-7661778938565150432013-02-26T09:01:07.527-05:002013-02-26T09:01:07.527-05:00Nice attempt at justifying an improper leniency. T...Nice attempt at justifying an improper leniency. The reality is that it is not a matana gemura, period. Rabbi Joshua Maroofhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12585369620887846940noreply@blogger.com