tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post116653863524420771..comments2024-03-05T21:22:43.426-05:00Comments on parshablog: parshat Mikeitz: What Is Bothering Joshy? רְדוּ-שָׁמָּהjoshwaxmanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03516171362038454070noreply@blogger.comBlogger2125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1166650698774933442006-12-20T16:38:00.000-05:002006-12-20T16:38:00.000-05:00in terms of your quibble:I try to be agnostic abou...in terms of your quibble:<BR/>I try to be agnostic about the question of whether Yaakov knew or not. Thus, I write, "Yaakov could have intended this prediction with רדו שמה or could have unwittingly made the prediction with this statement."<BR/><BR/>The language of the midrash is בישרם שהן עתידין לעשות שם ר"י שנה מנין רד"ו, which can be a conscious or unwitting prophecy. And even if this midrash meant it one way, Rashi could have meant it the other. So I agree that this is not what Rashi necessarily says. If so, it fits into a different theme of making unwitting statements that are true even though they do not know it.<BR/><BR/>I don't think the "similarly" part necessarily has relevance. That is, if one says that one or two instances are deliberate, that does not mean that *all* instances need to be deliberate. I would not suggest that Datan and Aviram, or Yaakov, consciously announced what they did. But there may be other examples which may fit the pattern of foreknowledge. Thus, at the end of his life, Yaakov will tell them what will happen in the end of days. We have Potifar's wife knowing that she will have righteous descendants with Yosef, and Korach knowing he will have great descendants. Surely the midrash Rashi states in which Yaakov sent to Yosef to Chevron shows knowledge (which I mentioned in my post), as well as the explicit pasuk in which Avraham is told about the exile.<BR/><BR/>An example of such foreknowledge may be seen when Rachel says (in Bereishit 30:24) "May the Lord grant me yet another son" where Rashi cites a midrash from Midrash Rabba, "She knew through prophecy that Jacob was destined to establish only twelve tribes. She said, “May it be His will that the one he is destined to establish be from me.” Therefore, she prayed only for another son [and no more]." Here, a diyuk into the speech shows foreknowledge.<BR/>Another example though not of a diyuk is pasuk 11 from perek 29; "And Jacob kissed Rachel, and he raised his voice and wept" where Rashi comments, "Since he foresaw with the holy spirit that she (Rachel) would not enter the grave with him."<BR/><BR/>Another example: "And she conceived again and bore a son, and she said, "Now this time my husband will be attached to me, for I have borne him three sons; therefore, He named him Levi." Rashi says "Heb. יִלָּוֶה. Since the Matriarchs were prophetesses, they knew that twelve tribes would emanate from Jacob, and that he would marry four wives, she said, “From now on, he will find no fault with me for I have contributed my share in (producing) sons.” - [from Bereishith Rabbathi, attributed to Rabbi Moshe Hadarshan, Midrash Aggadah] "<BR/><BR/>Also "And she conceived again and bore a son, and she said, "This time, I will thank the Lord! Therefore, she named him Judah, and [then] she stopped bearing." Where Rashi says "This time, I will thank since I have taken more than my share. Consequently, I must offer up thanks. — [from Gen. Rabbah 71:4]"<BR/><BR/>Similarly, there is a midrash, in part based on "Why should I be bereft of both of you on one day?" that Rivkah knew that Yaakov and Esav would die on the same day. There are many other such examples. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes we may say it was unwitting, and sometimes we may say it was a deliberate statement. As I said and as you said, this one is ambiguous. But there are ample precedents for each option.joshwaxmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06958375916391742462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5589564.post-1166640734872651512006-12-20T13:52:00.000-05:002006-12-20T13:52:00.000-05:00I'd need more time to digest your overall objectio...I'd need more time to digest your overall objections, and I'm certainly no expert in these matters.<BR/>However, one quibble: there is no reason to believe--even acc. to Rashi--that Yaakov KNEW that this was start of 210 years in Mitzrayim. That's not what Rashi necessarily says. Rashi is just as easily understood as saying that Yaakov issued an "unconscious prophecy" by Yaakov in his choice of language ..r'du vs l'chu.<BR/>Similarly, no-one, to my knowledge, says that Yaakov KNOWINGLY condemned Rachel to death when he said that the one with Lavan's traphim should die--we are told that Tzaddikkim must be careful about their speech--i.e., avoid unintended consequences; nor does anyone claim that Datan and Aviram CONSCIOUSLY ANNOUNCED that they were about to descend to Gehinnom/Sheol/where-ever when they said to Moshe, "lo naale".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com